[NL2-NL10] anon tables nl4 sh QQ 3be/broke pre SB

    • noulispa
      noulispa
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.01.2010 Posts: 1,280
      CO: $5.74 (143.5 bb)
      BTN: $4.20 (105 bb)
      SB: $4.35 (108.7 bb)
      BB: $7.16 (179 bb)
      UTG: $4.49 (112.3 bb)
      MP: $4.06 (101.5 bb) 25/9/RFI tot 9/rfi mp 20/3bet 3,6/fld 3bet-/hands 75

      Preflop: hero is SB with Q :diamond: Q :club:
      UTG folds, MP raises to $0.16, 2 folds, SB raises to $0.60, BB folds, MP raises to $1.16, SB raises to $4.35 and is all-in, MP calls $2.90 and is all-in

      Flop: ($8.16) 2:diamond: T:club: 3:spade: (2 players, 2 are all-in)
      Turn: ($8.16) 6:club: (2 players, 2 are all-in)
      River: ($8.16) 4:spade: (2 players, 2 are all-in)


      he seems nitty with 9 %rfi but the 75 hands are enough ? ok to go broke pre ?
  • 6 replies
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Hi Noulispa,

      Preflop: I would say that our 3-bet versus MP is fine given the limited info on the villain.

      Going broke is fine because given the smaller 4-bet he could have some bluffs still and AK/QQ+ should be part of his range.
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,310
      Hey Noulispa,

      I don't like 3bet vs MP open with QQ, especially when villain has possibly a low PFR. Stacking off here will be a long-run leak at 4nl imo. RFI as 9% is over a larger sample than RFI from MP and is the stat you should go with in this instance.

      Villain is basically never bluffing MP vs SB, and there is only 1 combination of QQ, so I strongly disagree with earlier comments in the thread. Range is usually AK/KK+.
    • noulispa
      noulispa
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.01.2010 Posts: 1,280
      Hey Noulispa, I don't like 3bet vs MP open with QQ, especially when villain has possibly a low PFR. Stacking off here will be a long-run leak at 4nl imo. RFI as 9% is over a larger sample than RFI from MP and is the stat you should go with in this instance. Villain is basically never bluffing MP vs SB, and there is only 1 combination of QQ, so I strongly disagree with earlier comments in the thread. Range is usually AK/KK+.





      Hi Noulispa, Preflop: I would say that our 3-bet versus MP is fine given the limited info on the villain. Going broke is fine because given the smaller 4-bet he could have some bluffs still and AK/QQ+ should be part of his range.



      mehhh u make my life helllll ahahaha.
      But anyways i know the truth is somewhere between . I am really confuse though i dont know what to do in this spots i struggle betwwen 3bet/fold 3bet/call / flat pre. i know that the answer is given always with the info we got on the opp. Though when we got zero or limited info + not 100% confirm we got to stick to a general play. And say go broke with QQ against unkn with 100 bbs stack.
      But then we have to ask is profitable how loose the are going broke . And i think its both there are really nitty guys (nl4 regs ) and the fish that go broke light so what is best ?



      Thanks
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,310
      Some things are close.

      Stacking off with QQ SB vs MP is not even close imo, it's pretty much a mortal sin at micros + the guy has 9% RFI to boot.

      Best option is clearly to flat pf with given info imo.

      The exception to this is that you have empirical evidence to suggest he will stack off a lot wider - and I'm assuming you only have the info you provided. I'll leave it open for other judges to comment though.

      It can very easily be different at higher stakes, but at 4nl SBvsMP dynamics are non-existent.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by w34z3l
      Some things are close.

      Stacking off with QQ SB vs MP is not even close imo, it's pretty much a mortal sin at micros + the guy has 9% RFI to boot.

      Best option is clearly to flat pf with given info imo.

      The exception to this is that you have empirical evidence to suggest he will stack off a lot wider - and I'm assuming you only have the info you provided. I'll leave it open for other judges to comment though.

      It can very easily be different at higher stakes, but at 4nl SBvsMP dynamics are non-existent.
      Maybe the stacking off part is ligther however, what do you expect a 9% PFR to do when you 3-bet him?

      He almost always calls his entire non-4bet range, especially at 4nl. So to not 3-bet QQ for value preflop would be wasting the hand, IMO.

      Sure, when he 4-bets he may be stronger and we can decide to fold but we have 40% equity versus QQ+, AK so it's enough for him to bluff rarely or stack off lighter for us to break even on that part.

      But calling because we are afraid of his shoving range is very weak imo...

      And I'm not even taking into account the small sample of hands we have here. 75 hands is not a sample. One more PFR and his % jumps a few numbers.

      If this was over hundreds of hands we may have an argument on our hands.
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,310
      Originally posted by BogdanPS
      Maybe the stacking off part is ligther however, what do you expect a 9% PFR to do when you 3-bet him?
      We don't actually have info on this. I'd expect an unknown to mainly continue with a range that beats us and fold the rest MPvsSB. I disagree that you should assume a tight unknown opener calls his entire non-4bet range. However it's not really the 3bet I take issue with, it's 5bet jam vs a MP 4bet.

      I think flatting is a superior option preflop because you play vs villains entire range while at the top of yours - as opposed to being at the bottom of your range vs a smaller part of villain's range. (Again I disagree that villain has a 0% Ft3bet just because his RFI is 9% - I don't think this is a good basic assumption). Certainly not "flatting because scared of 5bet range", that would be a clear fallacy. :)


      Originally posted by BogdanPS
      And I'm not even taking into account the small sample of hands we have here. 75 hands is not a sample. One more PFR and his % jumps a few numbers.
      True, but I think we both agree he is unlikely to be LAG. The likelihood is that he is tight, and as a general rule shoving QQ vs 4bet MP vs SB is going to be a leak at micros, so the fact that our sample size is limited makes this even less of a jam imo. QQ may have 40% equity vs AK/QQ+, but many players will not jam AK MP vs SB, and we do even worse vs a discounted range.