Hvard92

    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      About the startinghandschart. I want to know why i should fold in certain situations so it becomes easier to do it.

      * Fold 99-22 in UTG (why not call and if raise comes, call 20?)
      * Then it says: If you have KQs in MP and one player called, i should call too, but if two players called. Should i fold or still call?
      * Only play 45s-T9s. Does it mean suited one gaper too, between 45-T9? and why not play suited connectors or suited one gapers below 45s too? Isn't a suited connector a suited connector?

      And one more thing. On the "No limit beginners course - lesson 1", you get the startinghandschart, and in lesson 2, you learn about the 8 player types. But if you're gonna follow the opposite principle, you can't really playing according to the startinghandschart. It says: If your opponent is tight, loosen up. How? How do i loosen up? play T7 suited, 53s? What does it mean really?
  • 65 replies
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by hvard92
      About the startinghandschart. I want to know why i should fold in certain situations so it becomes easier to do it.

      * Fold 99-22 in UTG (why not call and if raise comes, call 20?)
      * Then it says: If you have KQs in MP and one player called, i should call too, but if two players called. Should i fold or still call?
      * Only play 45s-T9s. Does it mean suited one gaper too, between 45-T9? and why not play suited connectors or suited one gapers below 45s too? Isn't a suited connector a suited connector?

      And one more thing. On the "No limit beginners course - lesson 1", you get the startinghandschart, and in lesson 2, you learn about the 8 player types. But if you're gonna follow the opposite principle, you can't really playing according to the startinghandschart. It says: If your opponent is tight, loosen up. How? How do i loosen up? play T7 suited, 53s? What does it mean really?
      Hi hvard,

      The start is just a guideline and you can deviate from it if you have good reasoning.

      So you can call those pairs for set mining no problem.

      Then second statement should read "if you have at least one player that called" (we can also raise but that's a bit more advanced)

      45-T9 means 45, 56, 67, 78, 89 and T9. 43-T8 would be covering the one gappers.

      As far as your last question goes the loosening up part refers to how many hands we can raise (instead of calling) or raise instead of folding. So generally you add hands that would otherwise be folds. For example if you fold 22-99 you can now fold 22-77 and raise 88-99.
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      Thanks for the info.

      I know this is just a guidelines for the complete beginner. I've played for a year, but i didn't went through all the basics properly and recently i realised i had to learn the basics. I was so excited on learning poker that i read through it all just once or twice and continued to learn new things. It ended up with that i knew a little bit about everything which created a wide range in my game. If you have read The Mental Game Of Poker, you know excactly what i mean. So now i'm working on my back end of my range=) . Even tho it sounds ridiculous that a NL2 player is reading the book, this book has teached me a much better way of learning. I haven't read the whole book yet.

      "Then second statement should read "if you have at least one player that called" (we can also raise but that's a bit more advanced)"

      Ok, the more who is calling the better odds i get? Many times when i played KQ i've wanted to raise since people are probably limping with SC and pairs, or when loose passive players, donkeys are limping with any two. Isn't it for that reason we want to raise? However, i'm not gonna do it before i've learned something about it or until you have taught me something about it. I''m probably gonna learn something about it further in the lessons in the Beginners Course.

      "43-T8 would be covering the one gappers."

      I did not understand what you ment about that. But should i play any suited connector, suited one/two gappers in the same spots where i play 45s-T9s, all from 23s-T9s?

      "As far as your last question goes the loosening up part refers to how many hands we can raise (instead of calling) or raise instead of folding. So generally you add hands that would otherwise be folds. For example if you fold 22-99 you can now fold 22-77 and raise 88-99."

      I did not understand what you ment here either. Can you explain it in a more simpler way? You probably did, but i really want to understand this. I'm very grateful for putting your time into this, it really helps!
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by hvard92
      Thanks for the info.

      I know this is just a guidelines for the complete beginner. I've played for a year, but i didn't went through all the basics properly and recently i realised i had to learn the basics. I was so excited on learning poker that i read through it all just once or twice and continued to learn new things. It ended up with that i knew a little bit about everything which created a wide range in my game. If you have read The Mental Game Of Poker, you know excactly what i mean. So now i'm working on my back end of my range=) . Even tho it sounds ridiculous that a NL2 player is reading the book, this book has teached me a much better way of learning. I haven't read the whole book yet.

      "Then second statement should read "if you have at least one player that called" (we can also raise but that's a bit more advanced)"

      Ok, the more who is calling the better odds i get? Many times when i played KQ i've wanted to raise since people are probably limping with SC and pairs, or when loose passive players, donkeys are limping with any two. Isn't it for that reason we want to raise? However, i'm not gonna do it before i've learned something about it or until you have taught me something about it. I''m probably gonna learn something about it further in the lessons in the Beginners Course.
      You do get better odds the more that call (the pot gets bigger compared to what we have to put in). However raising with big cards like KQ is generally better because you gain initiative and can isolate one or two bad players.




      "43-T8 would be covering the one gappers."

      I did not understand what you ment about that. But should i play any suited connector, suited one/two gappers in the same spots where i play 45s-T9s, all from 23s-T9s?

      OOps that should be 42 not 43. So one gappers would be 42-T8.

      When they type 23-T9 they actually mean 23, 34, 45, 56, 78, 89 and T9 NOT gappers like T8.




      "As far as your last question goes the loosening up part refers to how many hands we can raise (instead of calling) or raise instead of folding. So generally you add hands that would otherwise be folds. For example if you fold 22-99 you can now fold 22-77 and raise 88-99."

      I did not understand what you ment here either. Can you explain it in a more simpler way? You probably did, but i really want to understand this. I'm very grateful for putting your time into this, it really helps!

      You asked about how you would loosen up. Loosening up means widening your ranges. For example if the opponent limps and we generally limp 22-99 one way we can loosen up our raising range would be by raising 88-99 and calling just 22-77.

      Or if we only called 87-TJ we now can loosen up by also calling 67. Hopefully this makes more sense. Let me know.

      Best regards,

      Bogdan
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      Originally posted by BogdanPS


      You do get better odds the more that call (the pot gets bigger compared to what we have to put in). However raising with big cards like KQ is generally better because you gain initiative and can isolate one or two bad players.


      Should i Only raise KQ in MP, CU and BU? And how about KQs. Does it make a difference?


      "43-T8 would be covering the one gappers."

      I did not understand what you ment about that. But should i play any suited connector, suited one/two gappers in the same spots where i play 45s-T9s, all from 23s-T9s?


      OOps that should be 42 not 43. So one gappers would be 42-T8.

      When they type 23-T9 they actually mean 23, 34, 45, 56, 78, 89 and T9 NOT gappers like T8.


      I think you misunderstood. I'm gonna try to explain it more simplier. In the startinghandschart it says that i can raise with 45s-T9s in late position. So, what i'm wondering about is, can i add some extra hands in late position? Instead of just raising with 45s-T9 suited in late position, i also add 23s-T9s plus the one gappers and two gappers like 24s-T8s and 25s-T7s. Because these hands can make straights and flushes too right? And can't i just raise/cbet almost any two against a Rock/Nit? The same hands i mentioned I also wondering if i can limp behind in MP.



      You asked about how you would loosen up. Loosening up means widening your ranges. For example if the opponent limps and we generally limp 22-99 one way we can loosen up our raising range would be by raising 88-99 and calling just 22-77.

      Or if we only called 87-TJ we now can loosen up by also calling 67. Hopefully this makes more sense. Let me know.
      Against a loose fit/fold player, rock, nit. Can't i just raise/cbet against them with 22-99, SC or almost any two if im in late position or MP3? I know i'm wrong with alot of things but i ask dumb questions to get a clear answer about why i can't do this and that=)
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Hi Hvard,

      Sorry for the delay in getting back to you,

      It appears that I have missed your response.

      Suited makes a big difference when you open raise hands because of more playability postflop. I would say that you can open KQo at least in CO and BTN and KQs even earlier.

      For the second question, yes you can definitely add more hands IP like the suited gappers, especially with nitty blinds.
      I generally don't like overlimping these hands because of their weak draws so you rarely flop strong draws (usually weak flushes or straight draws).


      As far as the small pairs raise+cbet is fine as well as long as the player is fit/fold. After that it gets tricky because lets say you cbet 22 and then you get floated. What's our plan? There's not much we can do without bluffign without equity.
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      Hi Hvard, Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, It appears that I have missed your response.

      No problem :)

      I generally don't like overlimping these hands because of their weak draws so you rarely flop strong draws (usually weak flushes or straight draws).


      What is good enough to limp behind in MP or generally good?
      And against a TAGs blind. Is all SC in CU/BU good to raise with? In "The 8 player types" article, it says that you have to be selective to steal tags blinds. What does selectively agressive really means?
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      I have a another question.

      Lets say all players fold and then it's my turn in MP. I have KQs so i openraise.
      That is a openraise.

      Let's take the same example where someone limped before me first and then i raise. Is it still an open raise?
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by hvard92
      Hi Hvard, Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, It appears that I have missed your response.

      No problem :)

      I generally don't like overlimping these hands because of their weak draws so you rarely flop strong draws (usually weak flushes or straight draws).


      What is good enough to limp behind in MP or generally good?
      And against a TAGs blind. Is all SC in CU/BU good to raise with? In "The 8 player types" article, it says that you have to be selective to steal tags blinds. What does selectively agressive really means?
      Ideally you'd want to avoid as much limping behind as possible but if you must suited aces and pocket pairs are the best. Lots of limpers love those suited hands so having the chance to get the NFD is always great.

      And yes, TAG guys imply tight preflop so they will fold a lot versus our steals.

      Selective Aggressive, as I understand it, means that you have to select a good range to steal with and be aggressive with (in other words be aggressive with equity rather than just aggressive with anything).
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by hvard92
      I have a another question.

      Lets say all players fold and then it's my turn in MP. I have KQs so i openraise.
      That is a openraise.

      Let's take the same example where someone limped before me first and then i raise. Is it still an open raise?
      No,

      It is just a Raise then.

      Open raise means that you are the first person to Voluntarily put money into the pot and that you do so by raising (min raise or more).
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      I generally don't like overlimping these hands because of their weak draws so you rarely flop strong draws (usually weak flushes or straight draws).

      What is overlimping?

      Ideally you'd want to avoid as much limping behind as possible but if you must suited aces and pocket pairs are the best. Lots of limpers love those suited hands so having the chance to get the NFD is always great.


      I don't have to do anything. I want to do the right thing, regardless of what i want or not. So if fold is better than limping behind, i do that, no problem. But if there is a fish who limp/calls alot with all suited cards. Isn't it profitable to just limp behind with Axs? Pocket pairs i don't see why i should fold in MP but i guess you ment the hands i should be playing too (pocket pairs) along with the hands i could play (Axs).

      And yes, TAG guys imply tight preflop so they will fold a lot versus our steals.


      Can you describe it differently?
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Overlimping = limp behind other limpers. So in other words calling a limp in MP (in respone to your question: What is good enough to limp behind in MP or generally good?)

      ----

      Yes, I meant the hands you should be playing (including pocket pairs).

      Just limping behind a limper will prevent you from winning pots without hitting. On top of that you open yourself up to other raisers (other players that want to raise to isolate the fish).

      The main reason for raising though comes from us being able to isolate the weak player and play HU with him.


      ----

      TAG = Tight Aggressive
      Tight = does not play many hands preflop
      Aggressive = refers to their aggressiveness postflop

      Thus a TAG will generally fold a lot preflop so we can expect them to fold a fair amount to our steals.

      On the other hand, a LAG = Loose Aggressive, will play a lot of hands preflop and be aggressive postflop.
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      So if you're holding 78s in MP and 2 players have already limped you wouldn't limped behind or overlimped? Even if it says on the startinghandschart that you should play 45s-T9s in MP? And as i see it, you wouldn't have limped with Axs because:
      Just limping behind a limper will prevent you from winning pots without hitting. On top of that you open yourself up to other raisers (other players that want to raise to isolate the fish).



      ?
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by hvard92
      So if you're holding 78s in MP and 2 players have already limped you wouldn't limped behind or overlimped? Even if it says on the startinghandschart that you should play 45s-T9s in MP? And as i see it, you wouldn't have limped with Axs because:
      Just limping behind a limper will prevent you from winning pots without hitting. On top of that you open yourself up to other raisers (other players that want to raise to isolate the fish).



      ?
      The starting hand chart is a guide for spots in which you have no information and for players that are just starting out.

      I feel comfortable enough postflop that I would open a suited connector that's larger. 45 or 56 I'd just fold or overlimp as well.

      And for suited aces I generally want to be isolating as well.
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      The starting hand chart is a guide for spots in which you have no information and for players that are just starting out.

      Here's my goal: I have played for a year but i haven't learned the basics good enough, so for now ,i'm trying to learn the basics until i can do it so well that im doing it automatically when i'm playing. So i don't know what to do exactly when you're saying that the startinghandschart is for players who are just starting out. What i have been doing is stick to the chart until someone on the hand evaluation forum has said otherwise when i post hands. I have a list of the corrections that i have been doing so far and it looks like this:

      Some adjustments on the startinghandschart

      * Only play A10 offsuit in CU/BU
      * A10s and AJo is good enough to open from MP.
      * You can now try to isolate with KQ in MP and open raise with it.
      * You can now add SC, SOG and STG in your stealingrange against nitty blinds.
      * You can steal with any two but you have to have fold equity if you're gonna do it. Do it against nits and rocks

      I feel comfortable enough postflop that I would open a suited connector that's larger. 45 or 56 I'd just fold or overlimp as well.

      What are you saying exactly? That i could raise with 67 in MP? And if so, what type of opponent can i do it against? When shouldn't i be doing it?

      And for suited aces I generally want to be isolating as well.

      Against what type of opponent? What position (mp?)? Who could have limped before i do it? When should i fold? Etc.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by hvard92

      Here's my goal: I have played for a year but i haven't learned the basics good enough, so for now ,i'm trying to learn the basics until i can do it so well that im doing it automatically when i'm playing. So i don't know what to do exactly when you're saying that the startinghandschart is for players who are just starting out. What i have been doing is stick to the chart until someone on the hand evaluation forum has said otherwise when i post hands. I have a list of the corrections that i have been doing so far and it looks like this:

      Some adjustments on the startinghandschart

      * Only play A10 offsuit in CU/BU
      * A10s and AJo is good enough to open from MP.
      * You can now try to isolate with KQ in MP and open raise with it.
      * You can now add SC, SOG and STG in your stealingrange against nitty blinds.
      * You can steal with any two but you have to have fold equity if you're gonna do it. Do it against nits and rocks

      I think the problem is that you are trying to make your game "robotic" or "automatic". Unfortunately that's a recipe for disaster as your variables are never the same which means that your game can rarely be automatic. Sure, certain things like bet sizes or even what hands you open in some spots may be robotic but you should be looking at understanding why a certain play is good or bad and apply it to your game.

      The adjustments you've already made are all looking good and if you notice, in most cases, they are made because of the players involved in the hand. For example the steals versus nitty blinds.



      What are you saying exactly? That i could raise with 67 in MP? And if so, what type of opponent can i do it against? When shouldn't i be doing it?

      I would open them against tighter opponents or when we have fish in the blinds. However, you can still fold them until you get more familiar to playing hands like this from later positions or you get more experienced overall.




      Against what type of opponent? What position (mp?)? Who could have limped before i do it? When should i fold? Etc.
      The question is a bit general here.

      If you are isolating the hand that implies that someone (or more than one) have limped in front. So the opponent(s) is a weak player. The best candidates are the loose/passive fish. Against the loose/aggro fish it will be harder to isolate hands like A6s so calling is fine. You can also fold them when you have aggro guys behind that 3-bet you a lot and thus you'd have to fold a lot anyway.
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      I think the problem is that you are trying to make your game "robotic" or "automatic". Unfortunately that's a recipe for disaster as your variables are never the same which means that your game can rarely be automatic

      I think you misunderstood, and i can see why. My explanation was a bit foggy.
      What i ment by acting automatically, is the basic actions you do at a pokertable:
      * You sit down and begin adjusting to your opponents (automatically)
      * Folding hands you shouldn't be playing, an instafold (automatically)
      * Calculate winodds, potodds and implied odds when you should and don't ignore implied odds just because you haven't hit a draw for a long time. (automatically)

      I don't ment that i was gonna forexample steal with 78s every time i had the button or something. Just the basics. And playing 78s on the button every time is not adjusting.

      I use the adjustments i have done on the chart just when it is appropriate or when i thnk it is the right thing to do. Forexample unlike the options on the chart itself, i can now isolate with KQ instead of just calling. I develope better options in my range, just one step at the time. And when i feel comfortable with my game, i can take my game a step further.
      The question is a bit general here. If you are isolating the hand that implies that someone (or more than one) have limped in front. So the opponent(s) is a weak player. The best candidates are the loose/passive fish. Against the loose/aggro fish it will be harder to isolate hands like A6s so calling is fine. You can also fold them when you have aggro guys behind that 3-bet you a lot and thus you'd have to fold a lot anyway.

      Dumb question from me here: Why do we isolate a loose passive player when we don't hit most of the times and why not just call instead? If we cbets bluff and he calls, we lose money. Is it because if we hit, we get paid?
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Dumb question from me here: Why do we isolate a loose passive player when we don't hit most of the times and why not just call instead? If we cbets bluff and he calls, we lose money. Is it because if we hit, we get paid?


      Because poker is not a game of hit big and get paid off. It has evolved from that.

      We want to win pots in other ways other than just hitting. For example, when we raise we can win the pot outright (villain limp/folds). We also win the pot when we make cbets postflop.

      And yes to some degree is also to have a bigger pot in case we do hit so we can get paid more.
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      We want to win pots in other ways other than just hitting. For example, when we raise we can win the pot outright (villain limp/folds). We also win the pot when we make cbets postflop.


      So the Loose fit/fold players are ideal to isoraise against.
      But how about the callingstations? There's no point in raising against them, just extract value if you hit, right? Unless you have the goods?
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by hvard92
      We want to win pots in other ways other than just hitting. For example, when we raise we can win the pot outright (villain limp/folds). We also win the pot when we make cbets postflop.


      So the Loose fit/fold players are ideal to isoraise against.
      But how about the callingstations? There's no point in raising against them, just extract value if you hit, right? Unless you have the goods?
      Yes, the loose passives are the best.

      Against calling stations you don't want to bluff however that doesn't mean we can't isolate them.

      I much rather isolate a calling station and play HU than just limp/call and play multiway. If we isolate we increase the chance that he pays us off as opposed to our opponents.