[NL20-NL50] NL25: horribly played top pair good kicker + FD?

    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
      LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

      UTG: $12.80
      MP: $10.15
      CO: $25
      Kruppe (BTN): $25
      SB: $5.05
      BB: $25.60

      Pre-Flop: K:club: Q:club: dealt to Kruppe (BTN)
      UTG folds, MP calls $0.25, CO raises to $1.10, Kruppe calls $1.10, 3 folds

      Flop: ($2.80) K:spade: 7:club: 2:spade: (2 Players)
      CO bets $3, Kruppe calls $3

      Turn: ($8.80) K:spade: 7:club: 2:spade: [ 9:club: ] (2 Players)
      CO bets $8.80, Kruppe calls $8.80

      River: ($26.40) K:spade: 7:club: 2:spade: 9:club: [ 9:heart: ] (2 Players)
      CO bets $12.10 and is All-In, Kruppe folds


      Here the opponent's bets looked very strong to me. I think I had no reads, so he is most likely to be fairly passive.

      I think my flop call is normal.

      On the turn I decided he nearly always had AA or AK, so I was drawing. Should I push anyway with my 12 or maybe 14 outs?

      I decided to just call for flush or two pair value.
      Once I miss my draw, is folding ok? If not, I should just push turn, right?

      Also, will he often play KQ or KJ this way, putting me on FD after my flop call and protecting?
  • 10 replies
    • Diedobal
      Diedobal
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.10.2007 Posts: 558
      Either fold or reraise allin on turn. I would go for reraise allin.
    • kukac26
      kukac26
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.11.2007 Posts: 126
      Have many different ways of playing this one. Re-raise pre-flop for instance.

      On the flop there is an opposing flush draw on. The chance your pair is okay is pretty high. Calling is the worst option here. If you have the read on the villain and he's a tight cracker he probably has AK.

      Reraise flop and if he plays back you're done for. If he just calls you probably get turn for free.
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Originally posted by kukac26
      Have many different ways of playing this one. Re-raise pre-flop for instance.
      wut? Reraise preflop with KQs? Please dont. I think thats bad play.

      Dont like that he makes potsized bet on flop. Dont know what such big bet could indicate. I dont like calling here because he might lead out on turn and we will still be clueless where we stand. So i like raise better. Raise it to 8$ and fold to 3bet. That will be cheaper to find out where we stand and as mentioned before it could get us free rivercard.

      As played - agree that you should fold or shove turn. Hard to say what i like better. Those potsized bets confuse me. Why he bets so much. To me it seems like he wants to get rid of us and not get money in. But dont know ... some reads would help here a lot.
    • kukac26
      kukac26
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.11.2007 Posts: 126
      wut? Reraise preflop with KQs? Please dont. I think thats bad play.



      In 6-max?

      From the button?

      I'll reraise CO with two napkins (Who's probably isolating the limper).

      KQs is a great hand to wake up with on the button SH.
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Originally posted by kukac26
      wut? Reraise preflop with KQs? Please dont. I think thats bad play.



      In 6-max?

      From the button?

      I'll reraise CO with two napkins (Who's probably isolating the limper).

      KQs is a great hand to wake up with on the button SH.
      So with what hand do you think he is isolating limper that you are ahead? KJ, QJ, JT?

      Your hand is easily dominated and is way behind big part of his range - AQ, AK, KK, QQ, AA. KQ is just a marginal hand, and making such strong move with it is -EV imo.

      Dont have access to calculating software now but will check equity later. Also would like to hear more experienced player comments on this. Is KQs a good enough hand for 3beting preflop IP?
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      K, now can run numbers. So lets try out a couple ranges:

      In my oppinion loose range that could want to raise after 1 limper from CO.

      equity win tie pots won pots tied
      Hand 0: 49.071% 46.35% 02.72% 625421360 36693284.00 { KQs }
      Hand 1: 50.929% 48.21% 02.72% 650487624 36693284.00 { 77+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, A8o+, KTo+, QJo }

      Yes i am mainly full ring player and last few weeks SNG player so my range could be bit off but i tried to make range with which i could make raise here. I included thought that limper is on medium stack which indicate weakness and i could want to isolate him. Normally i wouldnt raise with KQo or 99 but i included them in this range. I think this range is more acurate and closer to truth.

      equity win tie pots won pots tied
      Hand 0: 39.384% 35.08% 04.31% 245055888 30090150.00 { KQs }
      Hand 1: 60.616% 56.31% 04.31% 393383844 30090150.00 { 99+, A9s+, KJs+, ATo+, KQo }

      Dont know how you take it but i dont like 3beting with 39% equity hands and i think this is a bad mistake. Even against loose range you have like 50%. Have heard sometyhing about gap principle. Dont know if it applys well here but it states that you need much stronger hand than caller/raiser to raise him. This case seems faaar from it.


      edit:
      for fun i tried the loosest range ever which would mean that player is raising 37% of hands.

      equity win tie pots won pots tied
      Hand 0: 52.930% 51.47% 01.46% 1540562328 43689874.00 { KQs }
      Hand 1: 47.070% 45.61% 01.46% 1365165316 43689874.00 { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o }

      Either way you make it - most probably you are behind and in totally insane and unrealisticsituation you have only slight edge.
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      you have to take into account implied odds, fold equity and playability, not just hand vs handrange all-in equity :)
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      You should call river. Fact that he is doing that with worse hand is imo too high. You have tpgk which is often enough to beat his 3-barrel bluff.
      If player is very tight and passive then it should be fold on the flop.
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      so I should call river against an average NL25 player? Which worse hands will he bet with and how often will he bluff?


      and does that mean that flat-call turn is ok?
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      I can´t answer your question. There isn´t average NL 25 player who press pot button. He is either bluffing or have nuts. But since you´re getting that good prize I think call is profitable with tptk.