Adjusting vs 3bets

    • gAsheks
      gAsheks
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2012 Posts: 1,580
      Hey, im quite new to poker. Playing only for few months. Need some help :rolleyes:

      :spade: So i im wondering how to adjust vs people who are 3beting me quite a bit. :spade:

      Here is popup with some info:

      Not a huge sample, but still.
      Mostly he is defending his blinds agressively. I just dont want to fold every single time when he 3bets me. X(

      What could his 3bet range look like? ?( Something like this?


      Please prove if my assumptions are wrong. What cold calling range would be good vs his 3bet range? I hope someone will help me with this :D

      Is and option to 4bet bluff time to time here?
      Here is an example. What do you think ?

      Party Poker $4.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players

      Hero (SB): $5.45
      Villain (BB): $6.41 - VPIP: 24, PFR: 20, 3B: 7, AF: 2,5, Hands: 1758


      Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero is SB with T :spade: K :diamond:
      3 folds, Hero raises to $0.12, BB raises to $0.36, Hero raises to $0.85, 1 fold

      Is it a good spot to bluff here? With what hands i could do such moves?
      Mostly i guess it should contain some A and K blockers?

      Maybe someone can suggest some good articles or videos about this topic.
      Hope for some feedback. Any suggestions will be appreciated.
      Thanks. :f_cool:
  • 7 replies
    • ProfitsofDoom
      ProfitsofDoom
      Basic
      Joined: 29.08.2012 Posts: 177
      They may have some vids here that cover 4 betting stuff i'm sure. But i just watched and recommended a free video Leakbuster put out called "4 bet bluffing made easy". It was really good and covered things like commitment thresholds, hands with blockers, and alot of equity stuff. it breaks down some of the math stuff without making it boring. It is on the ace poker solutions youtube page, and i think HM2 posted it also. Definitely worth checking out.
    • gAsheks
      gAsheks
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2012 Posts: 1,580
      Originally posted by ProfitsofDoom
      They may have some vids here that cover 4 betting stuff i'm sure. But i just watched and recommended a free video Leakbuster put out called "4 bet bluffing made easy". It was really good and covered things like commitment thresholds, hands with blockers, and alot of equity stuff. it breaks down some of the math stuff without making it boring. It is on the ace poker solutions youtube page, and i think HM2 posted it also. Definitely worth checking out.
      Hmm, thanks for recommendation! Will check it out :s_cool:
    • holmeboy
      holmeboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2010 Posts: 1,336
      I wouldn't worry too much about it at nl4. If you have a guy to your left who is 3betting you a lot just find another table. There'll be plenty of fish at other tables. Just focus on playing for value...
    • gAsheks
      gAsheks
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2012 Posts: 1,580
      Originally posted by holmeboy
      I wouldn't worry too much about it at nl4. If you have a guy to your left who is 3betting you a lot just find another table. There'll be plenty of fish at other tables. Just focus on playing for value...
      Yes, its the easiest way. Stand up and go away. But i will encounter theese problems at next limits. Just want to get some knowledge and be a little prepared already.
    • holmeboy
      holmeboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2010 Posts: 1,336

      Originally posted by holmeboy
      First off this is going to be a very, very long post. Sorry about that, but it's going to be 90% strategy so hopefully it'll be worth it!

      My poker career, as mentioned in OP, has been a continuous cycle from nl2-nl10/20 then an extended leave of absence before starting again at nl2. Unfortunately this means I've never really progressed as a player in the 2/3 years I've been playing. I've attempted to break this cycle recently by putting in a huge amount of volume in the hopes I'd push past nl20/30 and make it to nl50. I failed. Its been a few months since the volume challenge and I'm going to try again but having learnt from my mistake I will be taking a different approach. So instead of grinding a huge amount of volume (which I don't really have the time to do unfortunately) I'm going to spend a lot more time learning about the game. Basically a 50/50 learning/playing ratio rather than a 20/80 one.

      This brings me onto the purpose of this post. Over the last week or so I've spent a bit of time reading and watching some learning material on 3betting+, including how to deal with 3bets. From manu's video suggestions thread I know its a topic people have a lot of trouble with so I'm going to outline my thought process and ideas on the topic in the hopes that:
      1. Someone better than me will have time to read the post and poke holes in it and tell me where I'm going wrong
      2. It'll start an interesting debate and hopefully we can learn a lot from each other
      3. People who are struggling with the topic can learn something and hopefully after reading have a framework from which they can construct their own 3b ranges and deal with 3bets much, much better.

      Having said that if you play uNL please don't take what I say for granted. And I can't stress that enough. I play nl20 so I'm not an expert and have huge leaks, otherwise I'd be playing much higher. Also none of this is my own material. Its putting together everything I've learnt from several different sources.

      The problem: We've played a few orbits and btn seems to be 3betting us a lot. After folding several times in a row we end up in two common scenarios.

      A:
      UTG: 101.5 BB
      Hero: 100 BB
      BTN: 121.5 BB
      SB: 99.5 BB
      BB: 106.5 BB

      SB posts 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J:heart: A:heart:

      fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BTN raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 25 BB, BTN raises to 121.5 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 75BB

      Villain shows KK and we're left tilting away another bi/rage quitting/crying ourselves to slept.


      B:
      UTG: 101.5 BB
      Hero: 100 BB
      BTN: 121.5 BB
      SB: 99.5 BB
      BB: 106.5 BB

      SB posts 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:heart: K:heart:

      fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BTN raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 6 BB


      Flop comes A37r and we x/f


      As we move up we end up facing more and more aggression, getting 3b left and right. Fighting back is a must but most microstakes players don't know how to do it. We end up 4betting but not sure why, with what hands/frequencies and sometimes end up getting it in in bad shape thinking 'villian has a wide 3b so I've enough equity against his range'. Or calling and playing fit-or-fold post which can be even more tilt inducing. I personally hate calling 3bets oop. As pleno says: 'initiative + position = profit'. If we call we don't have either of those so it makes life super hard. What I'll talk about will not be the most profitable strategy, just a defensive one designed not to lose/lose the minimum. So when in the situation with an aggressive 3bettor to our left you'll have a plan and don't have to worry about getting exploited.

      This is also true for when we 3b and face a 4b.

      For simplicity's sake I'll outline a basic scenario:

      -holmeboy opens from UTG (smaller numbers involved so it'll be easier to talk about)
      -holmegirl 3bets ip (if people find this useful let me know and I'll talk about the 3bettor being oop)
      -100bb stacks
      -Only call will be versus 5b.
      -5b will be all in.
      -formula for calculating equity is: raise/(pot + raise)

      We don't need to know holmeboy's exact range, only that he opens 15% from UTG which is in our HUD (for those that don't have positional RFI in their HUD, I highly recommend it).

      UTG: 100 BB
      MP: 100 BB
      CO: 100BB
      BTN: 100 BB
      SB: 100 BB
      BB: 100 BB

      SB posts 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, CO raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, fold.....

      For the 3b to show instant profit UTG needs to fold:

      9bb/(3bb + 1.5bb + 9bb) = 67%. Therefore UTG needs to defend 33% of his range.

      We already know that UTG only defends oop by 4betting:

      ...UTG raises to 23.5 BB

      So now we need to find out how much CO needs to fold for the 4b to be profitable:

      20.5/(13.5-20.5) = 60%

      *the raise size is 20.5 (23.5bb minus the 3bb already in the pot)

      Therefore CO needs to defend 40% of her 3b range by 5betting allin

      ...CO raises to 100 BB...

      The easiest way to work out the 3b/5b:3b/f ratio is to look at the fold %. CO's range will be 40% 3b/5b: 60% 3b/f.

      For bluffs we want the hands that have the best equity against the top range, I like A2s-A5s as we have about 30%:


             Equity     Win     Tie
      MP2    30.15%  28.99%   1.16% { A5s }
      MP3    69.85%  68.68%   1.16% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }


      So when UTG calls the pot will be 201.5bb. As CO has ~30% equity when her bluffs are called after investing 91bb. Net losses are:

      201.5 x 0.3 = 60.5

      => 91 – 60.5 = 30.5

      Therefore risking 30.5bb to win 34bb (pot size before the 5b) CO needs:
      30.5/(34+30.5) = 47% fe.

      Ie: UTGs 4b range is 4b/call:4b/f = 53:47

      To sum up whats happen so far from UTG perspective:

      Needs to 4b 33% of his opening range. Of which he needs to call a 5b 53% of the time.
      4b/call range = 0.53 x 0.33 x RFI% = 0.53 x 0.33 x 15 = 2.6% {QQ+,AK}
      4b/f range = 0.47 x 0.33 x RFI% = 0.47 x 0.33 x 15 = 2.3%

      In theory it doesn't really matter what hands UTG 4b/f's because in the example we're never seeing a flop. But using hands like AQ/AJ block a lot of the stronger hands eg if we hold AQ that means there are only 3 other aces in the deck so 3 combinations of AA rather than 6. The same also goes for when choosing hands for 3betting.

      So when UTG calls the 5b he risks 76.5bb to win 125bb:

      76.5/(125+76.5) = 38% equity needed.

      Now to work out CO's 3b/5b value range. We need hands that have at least 50% equity against UTGs 4b/calling range so we end up with {KK+}. But with UTG needing 38% equity to call CO needs to add enough bluffs to make the weakest UTG calling hand breakeven, otherwise he becomes exploitable. I talked about using A2s-A5s as good bluffing hands so:


             Equity     Win     Tie
      MP2    63.98%  62.87%   1.10% { KK+, A5s }
      MP3    36.02%  34.92%   1.10% { AKs, AKo }



             Equity     Win     Tie
      MP2    69.63%  69.41%   0.22% { KK+, A5s }
      MP3    30.37%  30.15%   0.22% { QQ }


      I'll try adding A4s to my 3b/5b range v QQ and see what happens:


             Equity     Win     Tie
      MP2    62.29%  62.07%   0.22% { KK+, A5s-A4s }
      MP3    37.71%  37.49%   0.22% { QQ }


      Thats about 38% which is what we were looking for. So now we've got CO's 3b/5b range:

      {KK+, A5s, A4s}

      Lastly we need to work out a 3b/f range. Obviously this will depend on 2b calling ranges. But you generally want to be 3betting the top of you folding range, hands like K8s, A9s etc.

      Earlier I worked out the 3b/5b:3b/fold as 40:60 so if we're 3b/5b with 20 combos of {KK+, A4s, A5s}. Then we just need to construct a 3b/f range of 30 combos. Something like:

      {ATs, Ah9h, Ad9d, AJo, KJo}

      A total 3b range of ~3.8%


      Notes/Adjustments:

      I've left AK/QQ out of the 3b range because I don't believe in 3betting them against UTG opens. You're generally in bad shape against 4b+ and you waste their post flop potential by 3b/folding. There will be players where they are a snap 3b/get it in though.

      Also I've only discussed 4betting as a response to 3bets, however, you will come across opponents who call a lot oop. I've changed my notetracker and got rid of a lot of the shite, but one note i've kept is 3b calling ranges oop. So if I find out they're calling QJ/QT say. Then I'll start 3betting a merged range and AQ becomes a 3b.

      The other adjustments are kind of straight forward if you think about it. If villian is folding a ton to 3bs you can add more 3b/f combos. If they are never 4betting as a bluff than don't 5b A5s/A4s, just use KK+ as your 3b/5b range. If Villian 3b/folds a lot then add more 4b/f combos to your range etc.

      Imo going through this exercise (its not as complicated or time consuming as I've made it out to be lol) for the various ranges 10%/15%/20% etc is a really good exercise for someone playing nl10, and you've no idea how much you'll learn from it. Not only that but having the confidence to deal with 3bs+ and the reassurance that your not getting eploited is a huge plus. Knowing the various frequencies will help spot leaks in your opponents game too, which = huge +ev.

      It's my first time writing something like this so its most likely an incomprehensible babble and i'll be editing it quite frequently to make it more 'reader friendly'. Any comments/questions are greatly appreciated, both good and bad. And I hope somebody will learn something. Or correct somewhere I've gone wrong.

      If people found it useful I can make another post on my thoughts about dealing with 3bs when ip so calling becomes an option. Maybe some post flop stuff too when I get around to improving that aspect of my game. Thanks guys.


      Its seems fairly complicated so read it a few times. I'm not an expert but I think it'll give you a decent framework...

      And fwiw I think defending 33% is a leak on nl10 and below as people in general just don't bluff enough, so defending ~20-25% would be a good start.
    • holmeboy
      holmeboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2010 Posts: 1,336
      The last few pages of this blog getdotacom talks about it a bit in his lessons too. So might be worth checking out
    • gAsheks
      gAsheks
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.11.2012 Posts: 1,580
      Its seems fairly complicated so read it a few times. I'm not an expert but I think it'll give you a decent framework...

      And fwiw I think defending 33% is a leak on nl10 and below as people in general just don't bluff enough, so defending ~20-25% would be a good start.
      Thanks man. Great stuff. Will go it through second time later on :)