SB defend vs BTN steal

    • Gabinr1
      Gabinr1
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.04.2009 Posts: 7,755
      BTN minraises. That means he must see a fold in at least 58% of the time to have a profitable steal with any two cards.

      SB and BB then have to defend together at least 42% of the time so BTN won't show auto-profit with his preflop steal.

      BB posting 1bb and SB posting 0.5bb I thought that the defense should be 2:1 (BB: SB). So 42% would go 28% for BB and 14% to SB. These should be our minimum defense frequencies.


      In SB we can have a few different scenarios: (if not mentioned BTN is a tightish player that opens 33%+)
      1. BB is a fish - we have polarized 3beting range / we cold call strong hands hoping that the fish comes along.

      2. BTN is a fish - we 3bet depolarized with strong hands, isolating the fish. We don't 3bet bluff.

      3. BB is a nit, a non factor - we play similarly to as being in the BB, we 3bet and cold call.

      4. BB is a shark - we can't cold call because villain will squeez and he will cold call and play strong postflop, we play 3bet or fold.


      How should the ranges in every of this cases look?


      In case 4 for example, first I thought about was this

      (with a close to optimal 5bet shoving range of 4,5% - 99+, AQs+, AK and A5s)

      Then I thought, maybe this range is better because I have more blockers and having a few suited connectors I can also play postflop better if villain calls:

      (same 5bet shoving plan)
  • 3 replies
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Well i think 3betting 22-88 is a mistake no matter whose on the BU or the BB, unless you do it with intention of 5bet shoving you should either call them or fold them.

      I also don't think that just because villain is a ''shark'' you shouldn't have a calling range at all. Even if his sqz is really at high end of a ballanced range it will be at around 15%. And if he is sqznig more then that then start jamming 22-99 and flatting your value range. If his really sqzing 25% you should be flatting QQ+ and AK. So no matter what he does in that spot you can still have a flatting range and if his so agro that he's unballanced then you can exploit this as well, and if his calling a lot then this makes setmining low PP even more profitable.

      Personally my calling range is most brodways apart from KQ and AJ+ that i'd 3bet for value, 22-99 and A2s-A9s.

      My ''default'' 3bet range would be AJ+,KQ, and TT+ for value and then some bluffs(Axo,Kxs,SC,Random crap) that would be completely villain dependent. What my 3bet range would look like will mostly depend on the BU and not that often on whose on the BB. Even talking about a default range in this spot is kinda pointless since you have to adapt to every villain.

      I think its a massive leak to just set yourself a ''3bet range'' and then go by that. 3betting 56s against a good BU that doesn't fold to 3bets is going to burn you money, especially if you just go and 3bet 15% in this spot his not going to be folding much vs you.
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782
      Originally posted by Gabinr1
      SB and BB then have to defend together at least 42% of the time so BTN won't show auto-profit with his preflop steal.
      If they defend with 3bets to a size where 32o has to fold, they need to 3bet 42% collectively, yes. If they defend with 42% calls or with 3bets that 32o can defend against, then they do not defend enough to make 32o a fold.

      Originally posted by Gabinr1
      BB posting 1bb and SB posting 0.5bb I thought that the defense should be 2:1 (BB: SB).
      This is a super big assumption :)

      Originally posted by Gabinr1
      So 42% would go 28% for BB and 14% to SB. These should be our minimum defense frequencies.
      No. 28+14 =42, yes. But from BT perspective he would only receive 14%+(1-14%)(28%) = 38% defends!

      To see why this is more clearly: Imagine they had to defend 100% that is every time. If both defend 50%, they would still both fold sometimes.

      So you need their defense a and b to satisfy a+(1-a)b = 42%



      Lastly, we don't want to make 32o indifferent, but more like J6o. Which needs info on their EV's against calls, which is hard to approximate.



      Unfortunately your math is both wrong and not powerful enough to yield any useful results. A 14% SBvBT 3bet is not necessarily bad, but your method arriving at that number is just wrong. I would recommend a 16-22% SBvBT 3bet for a 3bet-or-fold approach fwiw.
    • Gabinr1
      Gabinr1
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.04.2009 Posts: 7,755
      I agree with everything you said. Thanks for pointing out the errors in my math, I didn't even think about how the 14:28 defense would be seen from BTN's perspective.


      Originally posted by lnternet
      Originally posted by Gabinr1
      BB posting 1bb and SB posting 0.5bb I thought that the defense should be 2:1 (BB: SB).
      This is a super big assumption :)
      I had to start somewhere :)


      Thanks for the food for thought.