[NL2-NL10] NL5SH - KQo OOP

    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      SB: 49 BB (VPIP: 57.14, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 22)
      Hero (BB): 158.8 BB
      UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 15.93, PFR: 13.74, 3Bet Preflop: 6.90, Hands: 185)
      CO: 40.2 BB (VPIP: 33.96, PFR: 20.75, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 53)
      BTN: 21.4 BB (VPIP: 38.54, PFR: 7.29, 3Bet Preflop: 1.96, Hands: 98)

      Preflop: Flat to keep in some of CO's dominated range and if I 3b I don't expect to get called or 4b by worse. I expected his range to be something like


             Equity     Win     Tie
      CO     48.65%  46.32%   2.33% { 22+, A7s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, A9o+, K9o+, QTo+, J9o+ }
      BB     51.35%  49.01%   2.33% { KQs, KQo }



      As for the SB. I think since he is also likely to be a recreational player that his range could be pretty much anything TBH, but probably some small pairs, SC's J,Q,K,AX.

      Flop: When SB DB's the flop I would expect him to do this with TP or draws. I felt like my options OOP vs the PFA'r were either to call and re-evaluate the turn and take a pot control line or to raise / fold to a 3b since I would not expect to be getting bluffed very often if I get 3b on such a flop.

      I chose the call and re-evaluate mainly because I wanted to see how the CO reacted. Since he did not raise the flop I did not expect him to have a very strong hand, but I did not get any more info on his range. I still expected it to consist of TP, draws and maybe some pairs > TP.

      Turn: When SB donks again I still think he has TP and draws still. It is possible that he plays a Tx this way to continue to induce a raise from myself or the CO but I would usually expect players to start increasing their bet sizing when they actually hit a value hand 2pr+.

      Again I felt I could either raise or flat and continue to play for pot control. If I raised I didn't really make a plan for if I get 3b, but decided to anyway due to the board texture ( I felt that I need to raise for value/protection vs weaker pairs and draws) . I think I would have to raise/fold even given the pot odds because it's hard to believe that either villain would play weaker KX and draws this way. This makes me think that I should continue the pot control line if I would plan to raise/fold it.

      River: Since I put SB on TP and draws I decided to just call and go to showdown. Couldn't see too many hands in villains range that would bet/call this river. Hard to think he would bet/call K2,K3,K5-8

      SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q:club: K:diamond:

      fold, CO raises to 3 BB, fold, SB calls 2.6 BB, Hero calls 2 BB

      Flop: (9 BB, 3 players) K:club: T:heart: 4:spade:
      SB bets 1 BB, Hero calls 1 BB, CO calls 1 BB

      Turn: (12 BB, 3 players) T:spade:
      SB bets 2 BB, Hero raises to 12 BB, fold, SB calls 10 BB

      River: (36 BB, 2 players) 9:diamond:
      SB bets 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB

      SB shows A:spade: 8:spade: (One Pair, Tens) (Pre 60%, Flop 16%, Turn 25%)
      Hero shows Q:club: K:diamond: (Two Pair, Kings and Tens) (Pre 40%, Flop 84%, Turn 75%)
      Hero wins 42.2 BB
  • 6 replies
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Hi Muel,

      Preflop: both CO and SB seems fishy and I can see at least SB calling many worse hands if we 3-bet. And if CO folds that much to a 3-bet then it's even better because we isolate the SB fish all for ourselves.

      I'd make it 9-10 BB here given their stack sizes.

      I think it's a big mistake to just call a small bet and give CO a chance to bluff us out of the pot. How do you think a min donk + call look? Very weak.

      We should raise there for pure value and if either have a hand they would call us.

      As played your turn raise is fine but should have come on the flop (and look to play for stacks). And river can also be a small value raise.
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      Re: if SB 3b shoves the T then I would be getting like 2:1 on a call so I would need like 32% equity to make a call here if I have done the maths right. Please correct me if necessary:

      (E* = total pot after SB shoves = 26bb + 43bb = 69bb / 33bb to call = 2.09 + 1
      = 1/3.09 = 0.323 *100 = 32%

      or

      E* = total pot inc all bets/raises: 26+43+33 = 102 = 33/102 = 0.32*100 = 32% )

      I would think villain would bet/shove something like the following range:
      (I think this is quite a conservative estimate)


      Board: K:club: T:heart: 4:spade:  T:spade:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      SB     60.06%  54.21%   5.85% { TdTc, AhKh, AsKs, AsQs, KhQh, KsQs, AsJs, KhJh, KsJs, QdJd, QhJh, QsJs, AdTd, AcTc, QdTd, JdTd, JcTc, Ks9s, Qs9s, Js9s, Td9d, Tc9c, Ks8s, Td8d, Tc8c, Ks7s, Ks6s, Ks5s, AdTc, AhTd, AhTc, AsTd, AsTc, AcTd, KhQd, KhQs, KsQd, KsQh, KhJd, KhJs, KhJc, KsJd, KsJh, KsJc, KhTd, KhTc, KsTd, KsTc, QdJh, QdJs, QdJc, QhJd, QhJs, QhJc, QsJd, QsJh, QsJc, QdTc, QhTd, QhTc, QsTd, QsTc, JdTc, JhTd, JhTc, JsTd, JsTc, JcTd }
      BB     39.94%  34.09%   5.85% { KdQc }
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      Preflop: I presume it would be a 3b/fold line?

      Flop / Turn: Doesn't raising the flop only iso me vs better or do you think they are likely to be bad enough to bet/call all their KX and draws. I still think that vs a 3b on the flop we would mostly be behind to 2pr+. On the Turn I think I can more easily raise/broke vs a 3b.

      I am usually just calling a lot with TP's OOP w/o PF initiative so as not to ISO myself vs better. Is this a big leak?

      Should I try to be a bit more liberal in raising flop for pure value vs such players. I know it depends a lot on other factors.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by muel294
      Preflop: I presume it would be a 3b/fold line?

      Flop / Turn: Doesn't raising the flop only iso me vs better or do you think they are likely to be bad enough to bet/call all their KX and draws. I still think that vs a 3b on the flop we would mostly be behind to 2pr+. On the Turn I think I can more easily raise/broke vs a 3b.

      I am usually just calling a lot with TP's OOP w/o PF initiative so as not to ISO myself vs better. Is this a big leak?

      Should I try to be a bit more liberal in raising flop for pure value vs such players. I know it depends a lot on other factors.
      3-bet/fold yes.


      Why would a flop raise isolate you only versus better? You think KX will fold the flop? How about Tx or draws? Fish like him donk/call all the time with a ton of garbage hands.

      Here you are not facing a big cbet from the PFR. You are facing a min bet donk from a fish. There's a huge difference there.

      If for example all of you check and CO comes out betting I agree that calling would be better rather than ck/raise and look very strong and possibly get worse to fold.
    • muel294
      muel294
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      Thanks BogdanPS,

      Why would a flop raise isolate you only versus better? You think KX will fold the flop? How about Tx or draws? Fish like him donk/call all the time with a ton of garbage hands.


      usually yes. I think I put my logic onto fish and expect them to play a similar way. I guess I give them way too much credit.

      Here you are not facing a big cbet from the PFR. You are facing a min bet donk from a fish. There's a huge difference there. If for example all of you check and CO comes out betting I agree that calling would be better rather than ck/raise and look very strong and possibly get worse to fold.


      Yes I agree here too. I guess when villain who was not the PFA'r starts min donking it says a lot about his range. I guess if the CO had o/r a normal sizing preflop and it went check, check on the flop then x/c'ing makes way more sense to start bluff inducing?
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Yes, if you apply your logic to their play you also have to consider preflop.

      The fish would not play 57/14 and limp hands :)

      And for your second question my answer would be yes, that would be one option.