[NL20-NL50] A6s vs 3bet

    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      iPoker - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BB: 96.5 BB (VPIP: 23.41, PFR: 21.00, 3Bet Preflop: 11.36, Hands: 3,422)
      UTG: 35.14 BB (VPIP: 13.15, PFR: 11.52, 3Bet Preflop: 7.55, Hands: 671)
      Hero (MP): 200.38 BB
      CO: 99.14 BB (VPIP: 22.52, PFR: 18.02, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 115)
      BTN: 104.64 BB (VPIP: 31.64, PFR: 30.51, 3Bet Preflop: 19.18, Hands: 186)
      SB: 37.28 BB (VPIP: 16.64, PFR: 14.66, 3Bet Preflop: 5.11, Hands: 672)

      SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 6:heart: A:heart:

      fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 21 BB, BTN raises to 48 BB, fold

      BTN wins 43.5 BB


      Not many hands on him but 50% 3bet from button 7/14 (thats huge). I never 4bet bluff, but versus him I had to. Also last time I rembember he 3bet from BU I 4bet he shoved (I also folded). So I am not sure if I could call even with this hand? Or fold and simply wait for better hand to stack off?
  • 6 replies
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Hi GingerKid,

      Preflop: How come you "never" 4-bet bluff at 50nl?

      I think that once you 4-bet and he puts half his stack in we won't have any FE and stacking off will just be spewy. So I can't see another option but folding.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Hi Gingerkid.

      Wondering what you think the chances are that he is manipulating his range vs you?

      If he 3bet you a few times he might reason your first 4bet is quite likely to be a bluff and since he needs something like 47% FEQ 100BB deep with Axs it seems very likely the first hand he was bluffing.

      Now you've 4bet him once and folded its the perfect spot for him to 5bet for value with an extended range and miss the 5bet with the bluff portion of his range. its also more likely you have a value hand after getting shoved on once before.

      I'm theorizing because I read a little about range manipulation in a HU Sng e-book recently and it seems like this situation might be applicable.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Originally posted by BogdanPS
      Hi GingerKid,

      Preflop: How come you "never" 4-bet bluff at 50nl?

      I think that once you 4-bet and he puts half his stack in we won't have any FE and stacking off will just be spewy. So I can't see another option but folding.
      I am not 4bet-in as bluff in NL50 because it almost never works. When I see fold to 4bet stats of reggs it is almost for everybody <40%. People shove almost with everyhand, and just few people call 4bet. So I adapted by just 4betting with JJ+, AK, and still they are not folding. It seems that most people are just 3betting hands with which they are willing to go broke vs me.
      I am playing Nl50 4 weeks, and in first 10 days I was 4betting as bluff when somebody 3bets around 10%, and it almost never worked for me. Than I stopped and noticed that people shove with A5s, 77, AJ and similar.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by GingerKid
      Originally posted by BogdanPS
      Hi GingerKid,

      Preflop: How come you "never" 4-bet bluff at 50nl?

      I think that once you 4-bet and he puts half his stack in we won't have any FE and stacking off will just be spewy. So I can't see another option but folding.
      I am not 4bet-in as bluff in NL50 because it almost never works. When I see fold to 4bet stats of reggs it is almost for everybody <40%. People shove almost with everyhand, and just few people call 4bet. So I adapted by just 4betting with JJ+, AK, and still they are not folding. It seems that most people are just 3betting hands with which they are willing to go broke vs me.
      I am playing Nl50 4 weeks, and in first 10 days I was 4betting as bluff when somebody 3bets around 10%, and it almost never worked for me. Than I stopped and noticed that people shove with A5s, 77, AJ and similar.
      You did say that you blufed villain one time before this hand so I was just double checking.

      Now that we have this answer the question is: why do we not expend our 4-bet value range if they never fold and have hands like A5, 77, AJ?
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Originally posted by BogdanPS
      Originally posted by GingerKid
      Originally posted by BogdanPS
      Hi GingerKid,

      Preflop: How come you "never" 4-bet bluff at 50nl?

      I think that once you 4-bet and he puts half his stack in we won't have any FE and stacking off will just be spewy. So I can't see another option but folding.
      I am not 4bet-in as bluff in NL50 because it almost never works. When I see fold to 4bet stats of reggs it is almost for everybody <40%. People shove almost with everyhand, and just few people call 4bet. So I adapted by just 4betting with JJ+, AK, and still they are not folding. It seems that most people are just 3betting hands with which they are willing to go broke vs me.
      I am playing Nl50 4 weeks, and in first 10 days I was 4betting as bluff when somebody 3bets around 10%, and it almost never worked for me. Than I stopped and noticed that people shove with A5s, 77, AJ and similar.
      You did say that you blufed villain one time before this hand so I was just double checking.

      Now that we have this answer the question is: why do we not expend our 4-bet value range if they never fold and have hands like A5, 77, AJ?
      Yes, as I said I am almost never 4betting, the only time when I 4bet as bluff is when I see that villain is folding to 4bet > 70%, or in this case when I see that he 3bets 50% from BU, and I did already 4bet him as bluff and he 5 bet like this time.

      I am 4bet/shoving JJ+, AK, but what hands would you include? For example when I am bu and get 3bet, in that situation opponents shove the lightest, so which hands would you go broke?

      Another spot, when I 3bet from BU vs CO I get 4bet almost each time. So I shove with A2s-A5s as bluff (30% equity) and 88+, AQ+. Would you change this range?

      Vs EP and MP I am 3betting suited trash (if they fold >80%) and plan postflop to check fold (like this hand, but this time i hit and didnt know what to do). Also I 3bet vs tight EP only KK+, and vs MP AK, QQ+.

      Do you think it is ok? Now I asked too much :)
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      That's fine, all questions are welcome :)

      You have a good start.

      But if we always get 4-bet in steal-resteal positions then we can definitely go wider in our ranges.

      For example at least TT/AQs will make our value range.

      If villain folds a lot to our shoves then we can start increasing that range to more pairs and even add in some bluffs like suited aces.

      Ideally we don't want to get into high variance preflop wars unless we know that we can maintain composure and not tilt (and also we want to be at least somewhat positive that our reads/assumptions are accurate).