[NL2-NL10] Trip TT's fold or shove

    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      Raychy(SB) $6.01 - VP:86 PFR:29 AF:Inf. W:40|0 STL: 3B:0| CB: N:-1.37 Hands:7
      Renijs(BB) $2.06 - VP:0 PFR:0 AF: W: STL:0|100 3B:0| CB: N:-0.10 Hands:27
      Me(UTG) $2.05 - VP:12 PFR:8 AF:6.0 W:25|63 STL:54|100 3B:2|75 CB:67| N:-0.19 Hands:265
      florincernat(MP) $4.03 - VP:25 PFR:25 AF:1.0 W:50|100 STL: 3B:0| CB:50| N:-0.84 Hands:8
      aleksei_tod(CO) $2.76 - VP:25 PFR:0 AF:2.0 W:67|50 STL: 3B:0| CB: N:0.34 Hands:8



      Pre Flop: Me(LP) with [T :club: ,T :diamond:]
      florincernat(UTG) raises 0.08, aleksei_tod(MP) calls 0.08, Me(LP) calls 0.08, Raychy(SB) calls 0.07, Renijs(BB) folds


      Flop: (T :heart: ,7 :club: ,K :heart:) (4 players)
      Raychy(SB) checks, florincernat(UTG) checks, aleksei_tod(MP) checks, Me(LP) bets 0.34, Raychy(SB) folds, florincernat(UTG) calls 0.34, aleksei_tod(MP) calls 0.34


      Turn: 2 :heart: (3 players)
      florincernat(UTG) checks, aleksei_tod(MP) checks, Me(LP) bets 0.44, florincernat(UTG) raises 0.88, aleksei_tod(MP) folds, Me(LP) raises 1.19(all in), florincernat(UTG) folds


      Final:
      Me(LP) wins 3.77


      I really didn't know what i was supposed to do here. A minraise look like he testing if im bluffing, but it could be for value too. My bet was probably to small so maybe that's why he did it. I don't know. U tell me=)
  • 8 replies
    • kymupa
      kymupa
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2009 Posts: 22,364
      Hello,

      Preflop calling is fine.

      When we got checked to on the flop, I like betting here.

      I prefer checking back the turn here. Being three-way here it is quite likely that we can be behind.
      If we go for a bet here, I would just shove.
      As played, I think we can't really fold our set here.

      Best,
      Plamen
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      Being three-way here it is quite likely that we can be behind.

      If it is quite likely, why can't we fold our set?

      If we go for a bet here, I would just shove.

      Why?

      As played, I think we can't really fold our set here.

      Why?

      No offence, i just want to know why and learn :)
    • sausage646
      sausage646
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.03.2010 Posts: 567
      Originally posted by kymupa
      Preflop calling is fine.
      why is that? :f_confused:

      If you are calling here with TT you are loosing a lot of value:

      1) you are 5handed !!!
      2) if you squeeze here you can easily take it down here or with a cb
      3) at this limit you can easily get calls from worse
      4) no indications that the open raiser is some kind of a rock or anything at all that would hold off us from 3betting.
    • CPallo
      CPallo
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.04.2012 Posts: 4,350
      Originally posted by sausage646
      Originally posted by kymupa
      Preflop calling is fine.
      why is that? :f_confused:

      If you are calling here with TT you are loosing a lot of value:

      1) you are 5handed !!!
      2) if you squeeze here you can easily take it down here or with a cb
      3) at this limit you can easily get calls from worse
      4) no indications that the open raiser is some kind of a rock or anything at all that would hold off us from 3betting.
      1) 3-betting against unk. w TT is too loose, we are making them on default to fold worse and call better, and all the worst hands that call are going to give up post-flop most of the time. With more reads on villain we could adjust our 3-bet range to include TT. Besides, we want that fish to join the party.

      2) We have to remember it's against utg, we have position and we have a great hand that plays well in this spot anyway. I don't mind squeezing with bigger history.

      3) True, at least pre-flop, but on the contrary, we can get better value post-flop with this hand multi-way.

      4) No reads, no indications, no 3-bet.
    • sausage646
      sausage646
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.03.2010 Posts: 567
      22+,ATs+,KJs+,ATo+,KQo - 41.23%
      TcTd - 58.77%

      even if you take out ATs/AT/KJs its 58%.

      -> easy value bet.

      There is Pokerstrategy Equilab available in 'Poker tools' section if you are interested :)
    • tommygecko
      tommygecko
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2012 Posts: 1,229
      Originally posted by sausage646
      22+,ATs+,KJs+,ATo+,KQo - 41.23%
      TcTd - 58.77%

      even if you take out ATs/AT/KJs its 58%.

      -> easy value bet.

      There is Pokerstrategy Equilab available in 'Poker tools' section if you are interested :)
      Don't think UTG will call such a loose range vs a CO 3bet. UTG is going to be out of position. You are up against a much stronger range IMO.
    • kymupa
      kymupa
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2009 Posts: 22,364
      Hello guys,

      Nice discussion around here.

      First of all, I wouldn't really recommend beginners to 3bet TT in this spot. This hand plays relatively easy in a single raised pot, so 3betting it might get us in a lot of trouble spots postflop, since at this stakes we are likely to get called a lot.

      @hvard

      It looks like I have mistaken the stack size we have on the turn - I though we have just $1.19 there, but it looks like we have $1.19+$0.44, right?

      So taking a look at this now, I would strongly suggest checking back as well.
      As played, when we face a minraise here, I'd call since we get enough implied odds to play for a full house/quads here.

      Best,
      Plamen
    • sausage646
      sausage646
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.03.2010 Posts: 567
      I made a little calculation to see how profitable a squeeze would be just for heads up to not complicate it so much.

      UTG opens = 22+,ATs+,KJs+,ATo+,KQo ---> 12.22% (of All hands)

      situations if we squeeze:

      1) raises QQ+ --> 1.36% (of All hands)
      2) calls JJ,AQs+,AKo --> 1.96% (of All hands)
      3) assume he folds rest 8.9% (of All hands)


      66 total pot if we squeeze to 40


      Calculations just for heads up.

      How frequently the situations appears:

      1) raises 1.36/12.22 = 0.1112
      2) calls JJ,AQs+,AKo 1.96/12.22 = 0.1603
      3) folds 8.9/12.22 = 0.7283

      Profit/lose of each situation (post flop not included)

      1) raises we fold - 0.40$
      2) calls 1.06*0.4706=0.4988$ -> 0.4988-0.4= + 0.0988$
      (TdTc - 47.06%
      JJ,AQs+,AKo - 52.94%)
      3) folds +0.66$

      overall profit:
      (1) + (2) + (3)
      ((-0.4$)*0.112) + (0.0988*0.1603) + (0.66*0.7283)
      =(-0,0448) + (0,01583764) + (0,480678)
      = 0.45171
      = +0.45$ or 22.5 bb each time we make this move


      Only reason why I would agree with a call is your mentioned "beginner" but than again when to put a player in this kind of a spot at nl2 or nl10+?

      I would just advice to get in these spots and learn now because if you start doing it in higher limits it will cost you much more.