[NL20-NL50] KQo vs 3bet deep

    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      iPoker - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BB: 262.2 BB (VPIP: 19.79, PFR: 16.05, 3Bet Preflop: 7.04, Hands: 5,332)
      CO: 269.74 BB (VPIP: 18.72, PFR: 15.64, 3Bet Preflop: 6.41, Hands: 1,205)
      BTN: 106.08 BB (VPIP: 23.65, PFR: 20.47, 3Bet Preflop: 7.66, Hands: 3,375)
      Hero (SB): 259.46 BB

      Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:diamond: K:club:

      fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB raises to 10 BB, Hero calls 7 BB

      Flop: (20 BB, 2 players) K:diamond: 8:heart: 7:heart:
      Hero checks, BB bets 15 BB, Hero calls 15 BB

      Turn: (50 BB, 2 players) K:heart:
      Hero checks, BB bets 50 BB, Hero calls 50 BB

      River: (150 BB, 2 players) 3:club:
      Hero checks, BB bets 75 BB, Hero calls 75 BB

      BB shows A:heart: 5:heart: (Flush, Ace High) (Pre 61%, Flop 47%, Turn 77%)
      Hero mucks Q:diamond: K:club: (Three of a Kind, Kings) (Pre 39%, Flop 53%, Turn 23%)
      BB wins 296 BB


      He 3bets 8 from bb. I thought I can call because I have implied odds if I hit nuts, but obviously this was a bad hand to call, because even when I hit "nuts" he can still have AK and is uncomfortable to call down.
      Should completed flush on turn be good enough argument for me to fold any street?
  • 8 replies
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      Hi.

      Preflop: This guy seems to be on the nittier side. I would defend KQo OOP if villain's 3bet range in these positions is 10% or wider.

      Postflop: Don't see how we can fold.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Originally posted by mbml
      Hi.

      Preflop: This guy seems to be on the nittier side. I would defend KQo OOP if villain's 3bet range in these positions is 10% or wider.

      Postflop: Don't see how we can fold.
      So since you say he is nittier, 8% 3bet from bb, would you fold KQ, or 4bet it?
      On turn, do you see his pot bet as bluff? I dont think he would bet AA so large on so ugly board, and also AK is questionable because there are not many combos left of Kx, and I could have flush hit, or fullhause. Also if he has flush it would be strange to bet so large and deep, since still I could have fh.
      So on what hand would you put him?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      Well, If you want to be balanced, you need some 4bet bluffs right?

      Assuming you 4bet QQ+/AK pre (do you 4b QQ and AK for these stack depth), you probably need an similar number of bluff combos. I think AQ is strong enough to call, so you can call KQs/AJs and 4bet KQo/AJo as part of your bluffing range.

      24 combos of AJo/KQo vs 34 combos of QQ+/AK. Or maybe you flat QQ sometimes so you have 28 combos of AK/KK+.

      Of course if he's super nitty then we can just not have any 4bet bluffing range and call or fold everything while only 4betting the nuts. He's kind of tight but I don't think he's super super nitty so the strategy suggested above could be fine.

      Thanks.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Originally posted by mbml
      Well, If you want to be balanced, you need some 4bet bluffs right?

      Assuming you 4bet QQ+/AK pre (do you 4b QQ and AK for these stack depth), you probably need an similar number of bluff combos. I think AQ is strong enough to call, so you can call KQs/AJs and 4bet KQo/AJo as part of your bluffing range.

      24 combos of AJo/KQo vs 34 combos of QQ+/AK. Or maybe you flat QQ sometimes so you have 28 combos of AK/KK+.

      Of course if he's super nitty then we can just not have any 4bet bluffing range and call or fold everything while only 4betting the nuts. He's kind of tight but I don't think he's super super nitty so the strategy suggested above could be fine.

      Thanks.
      I was playing as you described 4bets bluffs in NL20, but I started playing NL50 one month ago, and since then I really have a problem with 4 bet bluffs. In first week I continued playing 4bet bluffs as in NL20, but each time I would do it people shove. Then I stopped after one week to 4bet bluff at all since I dont rembember them folding to my 4bet even once, and then you and Bogdan were suprised that I am never 4betting as bluff and I tried again in last week and again it didnt work even a single time. And I kept doing it because I thought I am just unlucky that they always have a hand, but now after a week I think it is impossible when they 4bet >10% that they always have the hand. And the fold to 4bet from most of players in Ipoker nl50 is around 30-40%.
      Also when I 4bet with premiums, they still never fold, and they shove so often AJ, AQ, small PP, A7s and similar.

      So do you still think I should continue 4betting as bluff? I think that one point of 4bet as a bluff is to have a direct profit of it if opponents folds > 60%, and another maybe more important point is that they give us less credit when we have premiums. So I dont have enough fold equity to make direct profit, and I anyway get zero credit with my premiums, even though my 4bet stat is so low (I often call 3bet with premiums).
      I think that most of people who shove light preflop vs me they dont look my 4bet stat, but they notice that most of people in NL50 are 4betting often and folding to shove so they do it also vs me.
      These are the reasons I think I dont need to 4bet as bluff.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      Look at the fold to 4bet %

      If it's 100%, just 4bet 100% of the time with air
      If it's 0%, just 4bet 100% of the time with value.

      If it's 30%, then you can use 30% bluffs and 70% value.

      This is assuming that opponent will readjust if you make a hard counter. For example vs someone who folds 30% only to 4bets, the hard counter would be to purely use a value 4bet range. He should then be reacting by adjusting his 5b strategy according to your 4b range and never 5betting light with 22 or A5s.

      If he never readjusts, then your strategy of only 4betting for value makes more sense. I think NL50 is the first limit where people are starting to get a decent idea on how to adjust their preflop strategy.

      Of course I completely agree with you that vs someone who folds so little we should 4bet bluff way less often. What I suggested about 4betting KQ/AJ was more against tougher opponents who have balanced ranges.
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Originally posted by mbml
      Look at the fold to 4bet %

      If it's 100%, just 4bet 100% of the time with air
      If it's 0%, just 4bet 100% of the time with value.

      If it's 30%, then you can use 30% bluffs and 70% value.

      This is assuming that opponent will readjust if you make a hard counter. For example vs someone who folds 30% only to 4bets, the hard counter would be to purely use a value 4bet range. He should then be reacting by adjusting his 5b strategy according to your 4b range and never 5betting light with 22 or A5s.

      If he never readjusts, then your strategy of only 4betting for value makes more sense. I think NL50 is the first limit where people are starting to get a decent idea on how to adjust their preflop strategy.

      Of course I completely agree with you that vs someone who folds so little we should 4bet bluff way less often. What I suggested about 4betting KQ/AJ was more against tougher opponents who have balanced ranges.

      OK, I got your point.
      Another important question is what should be the size of 4bet? Usually I was 4betting 2.5 times the size of opponents 3bet size. e.g. opponent 3bets 5$ I 4bet 12.5$.
      I noticed that almost nobody is calling 4bets, and also that most of people 4bet only 2x 3bet size, in this example 10$. Should I do the same (4bet 10$) ?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      The ideal 4b size is one which puts the opponent in a push or fold mode at the cheapest price.

      Meaning if I can 2X the size of the 3b and put you in a push/fold mode, I should do it. If I can use a 1.8X size to achieve the same thing, if I want to have a bluffing range as well, I should use it.

      In general people are less willing to call OOP so you can go for 2X-2.2X IP, and maybe 2.2-2.5X OOP. Look at the opponent's fold to 4b. The lower it is, the likelier he is to call 4bets. Thus the 4bet size should be larger. And vs such opponents our range will be more value weighted anyway so it's fine to use larger sizes when our range is stronger.

      Anyway even with a 2X size which gets called a good amount by the OOP player, that's fine cos we can make our tiny cbet on the flop and take it down. Having position is always great postflop.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      Oh one more thing, abt the ideal 4b size, the ideal size with the nuts is the largest possible size without villain folding.

      When u take into account a ranged that is balanced and mixed, u will probably arrive at a size of around 20bb (2.5x). What i said previously assumes that u want to have a significant portion of ur range as bluffs.

      For example when i 4bet vs fish, my range is usually value hands only. Thus i usually go for larger sizes to 3-3.5x