3-bet chart as small blind defence

    • ListenAces
      ListenAces
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2013 Posts: 252
      In the bronze videos there are a 3-bet chart.
      It says that this is a small-blind defence chart too.

      I'm assuming it means to only call from small blind and nothing more.
      Can anybody correct me if I've misinterpreted the chart?
  • 19 replies
    • doctorkgb
      doctorkgb
      Gold
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,263
      Originally posted by ListenAces
      In the bronze videos there are a 3-bet chart.
      It says that this is a small-blind defence chart too.

      I'm assuming it means to only call from small blind and nothing more.
      Can anybody correct me if I've misinterpreted the chart?
      I really have no clue what you are talking about. Please explain
    • Avataren
      Avataren
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,743
      I don't know if there is a specific 3bet chart for the SB. But what i do know is not to just call ever. in fact it be a better idea to 3bet more than you would want to normally. same goes for BB though this is a bit more tricky. there is two "known" basic strategy's for BB defense/3betting. either you 3bet like you normally would (advised against fish only) or you can go the "balance" way is to just call ATC basically. to a single raiser. 1 guy who raises rest fold. especially better to good players. that way they won't spot you have AA or whatever good hand in the long run and can make correct folds against you in a 3bet pot.
    • DeetM
      DeetM
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      Joined: 12.01.2011 Posts: 41
      Woah, what?
    • datsmahname
      datsmahname
      Global
      Joined: 23.11.2009 Posts: 1,366
      Frequently when you defend your small blind against an open raise from late position the best play is to 3-bet.

      So theres a decent chance that a chart for small blind defence would also be a chart for open 3-betting against a single raiser from late position.

      As you point out, defending your big blind involves calling as well as 3-betting. The reason is in part because we have fewer incentives to 3-bet. From the SB we 3-bet because it creates dead money in the form of the big blind. As the BB against an open raise all other players have already folded.

      Hopefully i've understood what you mean.
    • DeetM
      DeetM
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.01.2011 Posts: 41
      Just bo be clear, my last post was referring to Avataren's post. Saying you should only 3bet the.bb against fish and calll atc vs a single raiser is strange (bad) advice. From what/where are these two "strategies" derived?
    • Avataren
      Avataren
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,743
      Originally posted by DeetM
      Just bo be clear, my last post was referring to Avataren's post. Saying you should only 3bet the.bb against fish and calll atc vs a single raiser is strange (bad) advice. From what/where are these two "strategies" derived?
      it wasn't meant as facts. its what mostly is advised as i said .. not a fact that it should only be done this way. im sorry if you misunderstood what i wrote it wasn't meant as only against fish and only call against good players. its just what is recommended since fish dont really care about your 3betting range from BB and better players will be able to make a 3bet chart for your 3betting in BB and can play better vs you. thats just the essence of it.
    • redskwerl
      redskwerl
      Black
      Joined: 03.03.2008 Posts: 3,809
      80%+ of the midstakes+ regs don't 3bet from the BB vs a single raiser
    • Avataren
      Avataren
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,743
      Originally posted by redskwerl
      80%+ of the midstakes+ regs don't 3bet from the BB vs a single raiser

      :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:
    • DeetM
      DeetM
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      Joined: 12.01.2011 Posts: 41
      Apologies, didn't realise it was fl forum
    • ListenAces
      ListenAces
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      Joined: 12.03.2013 Posts: 252
      I really have no clue what you are talking about. Please explain


      What I'm talking about is in the ps_chart_fl_b_fullring.pdf downloadable here

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/resources/en/strategy/ps_chart_fl_b_fullring_en.pdf

      There is a chart with the heading

      "3-Bet against a raise from these positions
      including small blind defence"

      I'm wondering if this is for calling a raise or actually 3 betting when I'm in small blind.
    • ListenAces
      ListenAces
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.03.2013 Posts: 252
      Originally posted by datsmahname
      Frequently when you defend your small blind against an open raise from late position the best play is to 3-bet.

      So theres a decent chance that a chart for small blind defence would also be a chart for open 3-betting against a single raiser from late position.

      As you point out, defending your big blind involves calling as well as 3-betting. The reason is in part because we have fewer incentives to 3-bet. From the SB we 3-bet because it creates dead money in the form of the big blind. As the BB against an open raise all other players have already folded.

      Hopefully i've understood what you mean.
      From this I understand that you would 3-bet with this chart.
      Unless someone has something to add after looking at the chart in question.
    • Avataren
      Avataren
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      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,743
      im pretty sure you are correct LA
    • ListenAces
      ListenAces
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      Joined: 12.03.2013 Posts: 252
      Okay then I will assume as much from now.
    • JCSeerup
      JCSeerup
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      Joined: 14.12.2010 Posts: 1,094
      Originally posted by redskwerl
      80%+ of the midstakes+ regs don't 3bet from the BB vs a single raiser
      I guess about as many players at those limits would 4/5 bet more to balance their ranges and opponents 3/4 bet lighter. Does that mean I should do something similar at nl2 or nl5?

      I just think that very often at micros you can easily 3b for value and imo btn b/f too much which is an other thing that wouldnt happen very often at midstakes+. So in general I think not having a wide enough 3b range from bb at micros is a mistake. ( hope it makes sense :) )

      @OP as mentioned you shouldn't have much of a calling range from the sb. Also a mistake many people make is being too tight against the btn, 3betting more from blinds vs btn is really something a lot of players could work on imo.
    • Avataren
      Avataren
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,743
      Originally posted by JCSeerup
      Originally posted by redskwerl
      80%+ of the midstakes+ regs don't 3bet from the BB vs a single raiser
      I guess about as many players at those limits would 4/5 bet more to balance their ranges and opponents 3/4 bet lighter. Does that mean I should do something similar at nl2 or nl5?

      I just think that very often at micros you can easily 3b for value and imo btn b/f too much which is an other thing that wouldnt happen very often at midstakes+. So in general I think not having a wide enough 3b range from bb at micros is a mistake. ( hope it makes sense :) )

      @OP as mentioned you shouldn't have much of a calling range from the sb. Also a mistake many people make is being too tight against the btn, 3betting more from blinds vs btn is really something a lot of players could work on imo.
      you do know this is Fixed Limit right ? just to make sure.
    • datsmahname
      datsmahname
      Global
      Joined: 23.11.2009 Posts: 1,366
      Originally posted by ListenAces
      Okay then I will assume as much from now.
      If you'd like you can post the chart. its good (where possible) to eliminate assumptions.

      Against a button raiser I think 3-betting the top 20% of hands is a good start. Against early position perhaps the top 8% of hands depending on the player. And we gradually move between those as the open raisers position changes.
    • JCSeerup
      JCSeerup
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.12.2010 Posts: 1,094
      Originally posted by Avataren
      Originally posted by JCSeerup
      Originally posted by redskwerl
      80%+ of the midstakes+ regs don't 3bet from the BB vs a single raiser
      I guess about as many players at those limits would 4/5 bet more to balance their ranges and opponents 3/4 bet lighter. Does that mean I should do something similar at nl2 or nl5?

      I just think that very often at micros you can easily 3b for value and imo btn b/f too much which is an other thing that wouldnt happen very often at midstakes+. So in general I think not having a wide enough 3b range from bb at micros is a mistake. ( hope it makes sense :) )

      @OP as mentioned you shouldn't have much of a calling range from the sb. Also a mistake many people make is being too tight against the btn, 3betting more from blinds vs btn is really something a lot of players could work on imo.
      you do know this is Fixed Limit right ? just to make sure.
      Just wasted 5 min of my life on the last post then :(
    • Avataren
      Avataren
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,743
      Originally posted by JCSeerup
      Originally posted by Avataren
      Originally posted by JCSeerup
      Originally posted by redskwerl
      80%+ of the midstakes+ regs don't 3bet from the BB vs a single raiser
      I guess about as many players at those limits would 4/5 bet more to balance their ranges and opponents 3/4 bet lighter. Does that mean I should do something similar at nl2 or nl5?

      I just think that very often at micros you can easily 3b for value and imo btn b/f too much which is an other thing that wouldnt happen very often at midstakes+. So in general I think not having a wide enough 3b range from bb at micros is a mistake. ( hope it makes sense :) )

      @OP as mentioned you shouldn't have much of a calling range from the sb. Also a mistake many people make is being too tight against the btn, 3betting more from blinds vs btn is really something a lot of players could work on imo.
      you do know this is Fixed Limit right ? just to make sure.
      Just wasted 5 min of my life on the last post then :(
      awwh im sorry :D
    • JCSeerup
      JCSeerup
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.12.2010 Posts: 1,094
      Originally posted by Avataren
      Originally posted by JCSeerup
      Originally posted by Avataren
      Originally posted by JCSeerup
      Originally posted by redskwerl
      80%+ of the midstakes+ regs don't 3bet from the BB vs a single raiser
      I guess about as many players at those limits would 4/5 bet more to balance their ranges and opponents 3/4 bet lighter. Does that mean I should do something similar at nl2 or nl5?

      I just think that very often at micros you can easily 3b for value and imo btn b/f too much which is an other thing that wouldnt happen very often at midstakes+. So in general I think not having a wide enough 3b range from bb at micros is a mistake. ( hope it makes sense :) )

      @OP as mentioned you shouldn't have much of a calling range from the sb. Also a mistake many people make is being too tight against the btn, 3betting more from blinds vs btn is really something a lot of players could work on imo.
      you do know this is Fixed Limit right ? just to make sure.
      Just wasted 5 min of my life on the last post then :(
      awwh im sorry :D
      Only have myself to blame :)