QJs on sb

    • UXMALAGA
      UXMALAGA
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2010 Posts: 362
      Long time away from poker, second day back. How did I do with this hand?

      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      €0.25/€0.5 Fixed-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with J, Q.
      UTG1 folds, UTG2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, BU calls, Hero calls, BB raises, UTG2 3-Bets, MP1 calls, MP2 caps, MP3 folds, BU calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG2 calls, MP1 calls.

      Flop: (25 SB) 6, 4, 9 (6 players)
      Hero checks, BB checks, UTG2 bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, BU raises, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG2 3-Bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, BU calls, Hero caps, UTG2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, BU calls.

      Turn: (22.5 BB) J (5 players)
      Hero checks, UTG2 bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, BU calls, Hero raises, UTG2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, BU calls.

      River: (32.5 BB) A (5 players)
      Hero bets, UTG2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, BU calls.

      Final Pot: 35.5 BB.
      Results follow:
  • 23 replies
    • Avataren
      Avataren
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,621
      cold call raise and then cap flop ? wtf is that of a line ? 3bet or just call the guys 3bet. other than that i dont see any problem. just the flop play seems so insanely awful. your cap seems to me you got a little trigger happy there with the raise button eh ?

      If you had done it against me i would instantly have marked you as a no brain donkey russian fish. sorry strong words but you know what I mean. :) (sorry im having a bad day today)
    • Dawnfall26
      Dawnfall26
      Black
      Joined: 30.07.2008 Posts: 3,116
      Hi!

      Preflop I would raise this for value,basically one of the best multiway hands and this is seriously multiway.

      Flop I dont mind your line you ca also donk flop but I guess it doesnt really matter. Calling 2 cold is good here since you want other to stick to the hand but after UTG3bets and everybody calls it totally fine to just cap your draw for value vs 4 oponents.

      Turn I would clearly bet now. You can easily be ahead due to wierd preflop play and hands like A9,TT or just whatever is easily there.Besides you dont even need to be ahead very often due to huge amount of outs.

      I dont like to c/r here since I dont think your equity is that good here,still you are never far away from fair share of equity so it can hardly be a mistake.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      If you had done it against me i would instantly have marked you as a no brain donkey russian fish.
      The flop play is fine, and marking someone who makes a reasonable play as a "fish" without saying how you should play against them is counterproductive. You make money in poker by outplaying people, not by calling them names when they play differently from how you expect.
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      How would the flop play be fine? Please... Otherwise agreed, I wouldn't mark anyone a fish for this at lower stakes (see PokerStrategy articles suggesting to play like this :facepalm: ), althought it's definitely a mistake from every perspective of the game, not a crucial one, and definitely not as bad as the "no brain..." suggests. Also, IMO let's keep a minimal quality of posts in this forum.
    • Avataren
      Avataren
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,621
      sorry if i was a little harsh in my words.

      But I really don't agree with the flop play is ok or fine. its so weird a line. it doesn't make any sense. first you call 2 cold with your draw and then all of a sudden you cap ? Ive never heard of that being close to fine or okay.

      so to pzhon sorry i kind of used a bit of harsh words. I had a very bad day and should have formulated myself better. but I just don't and can't agree that flop play is fine. rest of the hand I think is fine. but not the flop. I said what i would do instead in my first post so the not telling how you should play or what i would do is not true because i clearly said what i would have done instead . raise himself or just call call ..
    • UXMALAGA
      UXMALAGA
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.12.2010 Posts: 362
      Im sorry I didnt added any stats, and what bothered me was actually preflop play, flop I didnt had any doubts, and also turn play worryied me if to bet it out myself or let UTG bet. Will write better my lines when I come to the computer
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      On the flop, ideally, everyone would just give you the pot, but that's not going to happen. Another good outcome is that everyone stays in and puts in as much money as possible. This is because you have a strong draw with a flush draw and two overcards, plus a backdoor straight draw. If your equity in the 5-way pot is 30%, and you will not fold before your draws have a chance to hit, then every extra bet everyone puts in will give you 1.5 bets back, a significant profit.

      If you 3-bet immediately after the flop raise, this can knock out people who have called only one bet, who will worry about having to call 3 more. You might not mind if someone with AQ folds because that could make a queen an out, but there are many other hands which might overcall but which might fold if you 3-bet. So, cold-calling may be better than 3-betting. Once people are in for 3 bets, capping for value is fine. That's why the play is reasonable.
    • Avataren
      Avataren
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,621
      Originally posted by pzhon
      On the flop, ideally, everyone would just give you the pot, but that's not going to happen. Another good outcome is that everyone stays in and puts in as much money as possible. This is because you have a strong draw with a flush draw and two overcards, plus a backdoor straight draw. If your equity in the 5-way pot is 30%, and you will not fold before your draws have a chance to hit, then every extra bet everyone puts in will give you 1.5 bets back, a significant profit.

      If you 3-bet immediately after the flop raise, this can knock out people who have called only one bet, who will worry about having to call 3 more. You might not mind if someone with AQ folds because that could make a queen an out, but there are many other hands which might overcall but which might fold if you 3-bet. So, cold-calling may be better than 3-betting. Once people are in for 3 bets, capping for value is fine. That's why the play is reasonable.
      are you an FL expert btw ?

      random note: you have a sexy voice in your videos :D <3
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      @pzhon, dawn: come on, people... should I be the one to tell you that +EV doesn't equal maxEV? Or that poker is not a one-street game? Yeah, cap the flop, cool, what do you do on a non-flush the turn? I'm not sure which option is better: losing all of my implied odds announcing that I have a FD by checking, or make a clearly -EV bet? Reality check: it's waaay past 2008 now.
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Yes, I am an expert limit player, although I haven't made any limit videos. I'm glad you like how I sound in my videos. I played before NL became more popular than limit, and I played quite a bit of limit after NL became more popular.

      Getting excited about the flop and then checking the turn doesn't tell your opponents much. Even if your $0.50-$1 opponents recall the action, you could have a straight draw. You could have capped because it was obvious someone else was going to cap and you wanted to save time. You could have a made hand and you could be trying to check-raise. If I had to state the reason why it makes sense to cold-call, and then cap the flop with a big draw, you can't assume that it's obvious to all of your opponents that you must have a big draw.

      Even if your opponents suspect you have a draw, what are they going to do to you on the turn? Charge you the maximum? You are close to neutral to bets on the turn after missing, as long as the pot stays 5-way. So, you can check if you think that will keep everyone in, or lead out if you think that will keep everyone in.
    • holmeboy
      holmeboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2010 Posts: 1,336
      Sorry slightly offtopic but:



      1337 times? haha
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      Originally posted by holmeboy
      Sorry slightly offtopic but:



      1337 times? haha
      it's in his signature. :D

      i found that awesome as well
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Ok, that just became funny. If your second reason why someone would call/cap in this spot is that "it would be capped anyway" and "to save time", then I think that pretty much proves my point. Quick question: when was the last time you played or coached someone or even had a look at .5/1 LHE tables? (BTW this hand is played at .25/.5) Cause games definitely changed a lot since.

      But just to be somewhat respectful, let's see: you can't have a straight draw, cause of your discounted outs 5ways, also 75 definitely folds to the preflop cap, as well as 87o probably, we're not getting close to enough odds after the preflop cap to call with these hands - so the likelyhood of straightdraws is pretty diminished (3 combos).

      You could have a made hand and you could be trying to check-raise.


      Not sure if I get this part, if I wanted to check/raise, why didn't I? Or you mean the standard fish-line of coldcall/capping as a slowplay here with a set or whatever? Well, given that Hero - I assume - is not an utter fish, that sounds highly unlikely, not even mentioning that it suggests you wanna turn your hand into a bluff vs 4, which is... well... I think it's a bit of an insane idea, but you tell me. In any case, you don't check the turn with a set, so even if we're being super-fishy about this, it still doesn't add up.

      Even if your opponents suspect you have a draw, what are they going to do to you on the turn?


      I mentioned this in the previous post, but I'll repeat it for clarity's sake. Firstly, when the draw comes in, you'll lose a great amount of implied odds, secondly, when the draw doesn't come in, they're gonna charge you the maximum given their knowledge that they have you beat (or in fewer cases bluff you off by the river).

      You are close to neutral to bets on the turn after missing


      No, you're not. You would be close, if all your 9 outs were clean, but given the facts that a) your board pairing flush outs are pretty questionable after an action like this, and also the remaining 7 outs are not even clear (after 4 person paying 4 bets on the flop, the likelyhood of one of them having a higher FD definitely increases a lot), you're in a pretty shitty position if you have to pay multiple bets - probably more than making up for the "bonus" value we achieved by the flop cap.

      So, you can check if you think that will keep everyone in, or lead out if you think that will keep everyone in.


      I'm not even gonna comment on this, it's so trivially BS.

      And lastly, I think the biggest problem is that with the coldcall/cap line it's pretty clear, we never even think about our own range or strategy at all. It may be the case (although I'd seriously doubt that) that given bad-enough opponents capping here has a higher EV than calling. However the much more important point is that our play just makes absolutely no sense in any kind of reasonable strategy. And I emphasize strategy, because in today's games playing hand-by-hand is definitely not the way to go. Now even if against bad-enough opponents it's good to cap here, fundamentally it's awful, and advices should be theoratically sound. (Cause what gives you the liberty to assume that most of these 5 players are "bad-enough"? Ok, I agree, we can somewhat deduce that from their preflop play, but is that in itself a read that we can risk a pretty questionable play on?)

      I hope I made my points clear (not to the "LHE experts", but to the players actually looking for advice).

      And now a short message to the staff. I restrained myself a lot saying this in the past, out of respect for you guys, but I believe it's time. On several occasions, while being a CM and a coach, I ranted about the responsibilities of being in this business to the fellow colleagues. In the Europian people's, and especially in beginner players' eyes coaches and the holy sanctity of PS represent something that is almighty, never wrong, never makes mistakes, always knows the True One Good Play. As coaches/HJs/vidprods you have to be aware of this, and doing your best to educate these people in the right way. The blue head (or hand symbol or whatever) gives you a huge power over people, and you shouldn't use this irresponsibly - even if it is not intentional (cause I'd never dare to think any of you would do this intentionally). I know you're doing the best you can, but sometimes you should ask yourselves, if it's enough, or if it's a good way at all. I know it's hard, cause we're people, but still. (And by all means this is not just to pzhon's LHE appearance, but for a lot of people working in this industry.)
    • Avataren
      Avataren
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,621
      im in love with you madorjan :D i kinda have to agree with you on this .. especially about pzhons lhe expertism ..
    • Dawnfall26
      Dawnfall26
      Black
      Joined: 30.07.2008 Posts: 3,116
      I would just say this...

      madorian... just lol comments;wont even argue about such stuff... I guess Im just one street player then,damn Ive must have been quite lucky through my career. I dont mind you disagreeing with other opinions but going so far to accuse ppl of low level comments seem at least a bit un-tastefull
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Originally posted by Dawnfall26
      I would just say this...

      madorian... just lol comments;wont even argue about such stuff... I guess Im just one street player then,damn Ive must have been quite lucky through my career. I dont mind you disagreeing with other opinions but going so far to accuse ppl of low level comments seem at least a bit un-tastefull
      I think it would be untasteful from someone who actually made low level comments. Given that I think I contributed a fair bit here on PS (mostly in the Hungarian community, but some here as well), I think I have the right to criticize other people's work. I don't mind arguments or having a good discussion, but I'm kind of freaked out of obviously wrong information, especially coming from a coach or HJ. (Sidenote: this is a big part of the reason I quit PS as a coach.)

      And no one said that you're a bad player, I just say you have some pretty obvious theoratical leaks in your thinking (that may or may not transfer to your game). No one doubts you're a good player, not even me.:D
    • Avataren
      Avataren
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.04.2010 Posts: 1,621
      no one spoke about your play or whether your a bad or good player dawn.
    • Dawnfall26
      Dawnfall26
      Black
      Joined: 30.07.2008 Posts: 3,116
      Again I have nothing against critisism but to me it means stating your opinion and stating arguments why you are against or for something. Your entire comment...

      @pzhon, dawn: come on, people... should I be the one to tell you that +EV doesn't equal maxEV? Or that poker is not a one-street game? Yeah, cap the flop, cool, what do you do on a non-flush the turn? I'm not sure which option is better: losing all of my implied odds announcing that I have a FD by checking, or make a clearly -EV bet? Reality check: it's waaay past 2008 now.

      ...doesnt include any of that except some wierd remarks about things that I assume you know we know...

      Then about the hand and our "low level" comments. Just like you I also think that I contributed quite a bit here to this community,mostly just out of good will and since it also motivates me about analysing my own hands and think about different scenarios. Just like you I have my own opinions.They may not always be perfect(and I know they are not!) but I guess I still can state them, btw this hand isnt even in the HJ section to begin with.

      And last...I still dont think our line is any worse than to just play passive. coldcall/cap does indeed make our hand look just like what it is (which I think in this huge pot and highly like bad oposition doesnt really matter) but at the same time it also does few good things(like extracting most value since I believe we are far above needed 20%).

      About loosing implied odds. If turn is club,people wont just fold overpairs and also I doubt you will get any more action on the turn.

      Argument about what to do on the turn if it misses if we coldcall/capped seems relavant the most but again my opinion is that in 23BB pot with many bad players it doesnt really matter.People wont fold draws, overpairs, sets, two pair or even pairs for 1BB more.

      You also mention that ppl reading PS articles are getting missinformed by analyses like this...if Im not mistaken I think Ive read an article about how the bigger the pot and more ppl are involved,lesser is importance of balancing.

      And...about me having theoretical leaks...I actually think I do(may indeed have more than you) but I think I have very good practical knowledge about how ppl think which I personally think is more important that disscussing which line has marginally higher EV.... and btw how are you even so certain EV of passive line is higher than EV of coldcall/cap?
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      Madorjan, instead of coherent arguments, you are just repeating that whatever I say is terrible and that whatever you say is right. That's rude, incorrect and not constructive. Just as taking useless notes on people calling them "stupid fish" will not improve your EV, insulting people doesn't make your play any more right, or other plays any more wrong.

      You simultaneously claim that this line with a draw is obvious, and insane, but it doesn't make sense for it to be both. You want to pretend that the $0.25-$0.50 players are experts. They weren't when I played a little at this level earlier this year. (I have a few bucks left over on a site where I am not supposed to be able to play. I tested that I could play by playing microstakes limit.) There are still plenty of maniacs, people who don't know when their own hands are strong, and people who can't read their opponent's actions. You pretend that in a 5- or 6-way pot your opponents are going to be watching you, but you aren't even describing their ranges or discussing what they think of each other.

      Most of the time, when a microstakes pot is capped 6 ways preflop, it is not that these are experts who all have strong hands. Usually people are fooling around, and they aren't just doing that on one hand. What can happen is that some people are playing every hand (or bored from getting raised out of earlier hands), some people are betting or raising for little reason, and maybe one or two people have good hands. There was a limp-3-bet, and an overlimp-cap. These indicate wild play, not solid opponents. In this environment, you shouldn't worry much about people reading you. It's odd to think people will rule out 75s or 87o from your range -- they are playing trash for 4 bets so they will assume you can have anything, too. You mainly need to asses the equity of your hand accurately, although you can decide whether it is right to knock people out with the threat of multiple bets. One consequence is that you shouldn't discount flush outs which pair the board very much, since the action does not say there is a set or two pair on a 469 flop. In fact, it's not a surprise if a jack or queen will make your hand good. That's part of why this is a big draw. Don't forget the backdoor straight draw. An offsuit 8, ten, or king on the turn is not a complete miss because you pick up more outs to a nut straight.

      Almost everyone can see flush draws. I never count on a lot of implied odds on flush draws (and implied odds are less important in huge pots anyway; it is over 20 BB after the flop). Playing the flop and turn so that it looks like a draw to some people will have little effect on the river action after the flush hits. When the flush hits, people aren't just worried that you might have the flush, they worry that all of the other players could also have a flush. A maniac may try to represent the flush. So, I don't think a possible reduction of implied odds is a significant consideration.

      You could have a made hand and you could be trying to check-raise.
      Not sure if I get this part, if I wanted to check/raise, why didn't I?
      You are confused. Reread the context. I was saying that capping the flop, and then checking the turn, could be read by your opponents as an attempt to check-raise the turn. So, it's not 100% obvious what you have if you take that line. In fact, in the hand, the hero could have closed the action for one bet on the turn (but chose to check-raise), so it wasn't clear to multiple opponents that they should "punish" the hero's draw after a turn check, contrary to what you claimed. Of course, this hand could be an anomaly, but in my experience it isn't.

      It doesn't look like you are applying anything close to the same level of criticism to your suggestions as you are to my arguments. That is not how to have an intelligent conversation. You are simply proclaiming that you play perfect poker, we should all bow to you, and anyone disagreeing with you or pointing out your oversights must be a moron.

      I welcome a review of my analysis, here or elsewhere, by PokerStrategy. Maybe they will ask me to make some limit videos. Although my initial comments were brief, I went through all of this analysis (and more) before posting anything.

      I'm done. You may enjoy the last word.
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