Tough Call

    • darkritual24
      darkritual24
      Basic
      Joined: 30.04.2013 Posts: 25
      Hello everyone,

      I recently started learning about Poker and would like some advices on a specific scenario that happens very often.

      I can't deal with this one whether it's a straight or flush possibility and it always makes me lose a lot of money. ( Fake Money )

      What would you do in my situation? Thanks

      Table : 5 - 10 NL
      Opponents at table : 6

      Hero Stack : 4000$
      Hero Hand : Ace :spade: , King :spade:

      Hero bet / Preflop : Raise 50$
      Opponent / Preflop : Follows
      Opponents Total : 4 Players
      Pot size : 200$

      Flop : King :club: , 7 :diamond: , 9 :club:
      Hero Hand : Pair of Kings

      Hero bet / Flop : Raise 80$
      Opponent / Flop : Follows
      Opponents Total : 3 Players
      Pot size : 440$

      Turn : King :club: , 7 :diamond: , 9 :club: , King :heart:
      Hero Hand : Three of a kind, King

      Hero bet / Turn : Check
      Opponent / Turn : Check
      Opponents Total : 3 Players
      Pot size : 440$

      River : King :club: , 7 :diamond: , 9 :club: , King :heart: , Queen :club:
      Hero Hand : Three of a kind, King

      Hero bet / River : Raise 300$
      Opponent / Turn : All-in ( 2100$ )
      Opponents Total : 2 Players
      Pot size : 2840$

      Hero fears the flush and folds, opponent wins the pot.
  • 25 replies
    • zumpar
      zumpar
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      bet flop bigger, bet turn, b/f river... you have like 85th nuts


      your range is uncapped so they wont be bluffing ever here, esp. 3handed, ever
    • breena
      breena
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2010 Posts: 412
      Cool a play money hand, nobody ever folds so I call he obviously has Q9 :coolface:
    • darkritual24
      darkritual24
      Basic
      Joined: 30.04.2013 Posts: 25
      Yeah, i know i should bet a little more, i'm having difficulties with it tho.

      Here's what my thinking process was during this hand :

      If i bet 3/4 of the pot on flop, they're gonna think i have a king so, i decided to bet a little less.

      Then, on turn, i decided to check because i thought to myself : if i bet on this, they're gonna think i have three of a kind and fold.

      So i took the "safe" path.
    • tommygecko
      tommygecko
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2012 Posts: 1,229
      Originally posted by darkritual24
      Yeah, i know i should bet a little more, i'm having difficulties with it tho.

      Here's what my thinking process was during this hand :

      If i bet 3/4 of the pot on flop, they're gonna think i have a king so, i decided to bet a little less.

      Then, on turn, i decided to check because i thought to myself : if i bet on this, they're gonna think i have three of a kind and fold.

      So i took the "safe" path.
      Hi, welcome to pokerstrategy!

      What you explained is similar to 'slowplaying'. It simply means acting weak hoping that your opponent/s see that and become aggressive versus you.

      However, as you will learn in the future if you keep playing poker, that a 3/4 pot bet on the flop doesn't always tell the opponent you have a king because sometimes you bluff to win the pot. Likewise on the turn.

      In this situation it is very bad to 'slowplay' because even if your actions tell them you have a King, if they have two clubs they most likely won't fold because they can improve on the turn and river. The last thing you want to do is to let them improve for free.

      So, it may sound weird at first. But the "safe" path here is to bet bigger on the flop and bet the turn. Because it is more profitable.
    • darkritual24
      darkritual24
      Basic
      Joined: 30.04.2013 Posts: 25
      Originally posted by tommygecko
      So, it may sound weird at first. But the "safe" path here is to bet bigger on the flop and bet the turn. Because it is more profitable.
      I'll keep that in mind, thanks.
    • darkritual24
      darkritual24
      Basic
      Joined: 30.04.2013 Posts: 25
      You guys were right, ever since i started watching very aggressive poker videos, i think I've finally figured out how to be a successful thigh aggressive player.

      PokerTrack Graph

      Here i go again, i almost tripled my money because i calculated the odds correctly. :D

      PokerTrack Graph

      This video is what really helped me understand what exactly is thigh aggressive poker.



      I'm not as crazy as they are ( I won't go all-in pre-flop with a jack and 7 ) but, i'll definitely check the flop if the bet is under 5 big blind or go with about anything if it's only 1 big blind.
    • tommygecko
      tommygecko
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2012 Posts: 1,229
      Originally posted by darkritual24
      You guys were right, ever since i started watching very aggressive poker videos, i think I've finally figured out how to be a successful thigh aggressive player.

      PokerTrack Graph

      Here i go again, i almost tripled my money because i calculated the odds correctly. :D

      PokerTrack Graph

      This video is what really helped me understand what exactly is thigh aggressive poker.



      I'm not as crazy as they are ( I won't go all-in pre-flop with a jack and 7 ) but, i'll definitely check the flop if the bet is under 5 big blind or go with about anything if it's only 1 big blind.
      I'm not sure whether this video even shows anything other than preflop aggression when everyone has few big blinds left in a tournament.

      Being aggressive means you are aggressive postflop too. I suggest you complete the beginner quiz on this website and have a look at the bronze articles under the strategy section.
    • darkritual24
      darkritual24
      Basic
      Joined: 30.04.2013 Posts: 25
      I'm not sure whether this video even shows anything other than preflop aggression when everyone has few big blinds left in a tournament.

      Being aggressive means you are aggressive postflop too.
      I know, the point here is not to be afraid of going all-in with a good hand, preflop or not.

      If i have : A :heart: , J :heart:
      and the flop is : A :spade: , 9 :heart: , 3 :heart:

      I'm def going all-in, 14 outs and a pair of Ace? Come on, why would i not go all-in on this?

      I suggest you complete the beginner quiz on this website and have a look at the bronze articles under the strategy section.
      I've looked around a little bit and IMO, this site is a bit too dull for my liking even tho there's some good information.

      I would never pay 40$ for a yearly subscription anyway when i have a 6 stories tall library at 200 meters from my house.
    • tommygecko
      tommygecko
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2012 Posts: 1,229
      You do not have to pay a cent to access the bronze articles, which is more than adequate to be a winning player at micro stakes. Of course this site is not the only available source of information for you so feel free to look elsewhere.

      All the best for your poker career
    • dogma18
      dogma18
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.12.2009 Posts: 340
      quit poker now! it took over my life, don't let it do the same to you :D
    • darkritual24
      darkritual24
      Basic
      Joined: 30.04.2013 Posts: 25
      Originally posted by dogma18
      quit poker now! it took over my life, don't let it do the same to you :D
      You're a bit too late I'm afraid, i've already been bitten by the poker bug.

      For the last couple days, i've been studying and playing micro stacks 14 hours a day quite successfully.

      Unless i'm playing against a LAG, those guys are just way too lucky.

      When going all-in preflop with a pair of Ace against J, 9 and they ends up with three of a kind, i just wanna kill myself. Not literally but i become very, very mad and kiss good bye all the hours i've spent building my stack at this particular table.
    • dogma18
      dogma18
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.12.2009 Posts: 340
      My only advice is to pick a format and stick to it. Put in the hours at the lowest stakes and slowly move yourself up when you can prove you're a winner.
    • darkritual24
      darkritual24
      Basic
      Joined: 30.04.2013 Posts: 25
      Originally posted by dogma18
      My only advice is to pick a format and stick to it. Put in the hours at the lowest stakes and slowly move yourself up when you can prove you're a winner.
      I have no problem winning against a bad or good non maniac player.

      Hell, I've won more money from good TAGs than from idiots going all-in with a 2 and 6.

      I really think i should just switch table whenever one of them sits at mine.

      Because, it doesn't matter if you have 85% chances of winning with a pair of Ace preflop.

      When you lose 25 times in a row, you just have to realize playing against lucky idiots is not profitable.

      I'm not using the term lucky idiot loosely either. When somebody goes all-in preflop 80% of the time and the other 20% he bets so much money that it's not even worth it to see the flop and always wins.

      There's no other words to describe it.

      I have only meet 1 good LAG, he would go all-in preflop with premium hands and play like a maniac post flop with nothing. My hat goes to him, he cleaned the table in 5 minutes and wasn't an idiot.
    • football123
      football123
      Basic
      Joined: 13.03.2013 Posts: 31
      Agree with everything these guys said on that first hand If someone is going to draw out on you you have to make them pay to do it. By making correct bets you will blow their pot odds, if they know what they're doing they'll fold draws or they'll call which over time will be profitable for you even if they draw out once in a while. Worrying about you opponents knowing you hit your king if you bet aggressively means that your bets tend to mean the same thing every time. You should be doing some bluffing over the course of a session or at least semi bluffing. If your a tight player showing a bluff early in a session will be profitable for you. Other players will remember that bluff and give you more action when you do have the best hand. Your view on LAG players is way off though. A LAG player isn't a player who's gonna shove with A 5 off preflop that's just a bad player. Tom Dwan, Doyle Brunson, Phil Ivey, Eli Elezra, Gus Hansen, David Peat these are LAG players and they're as good as anyone in the world. LAG players just have a wider range than TAG players and tend to try and steal more pots that TAG players. They're just as lucky as anyone else, over times cards break even for everyone. If you do get in a game with one of those idiot players don't leave. If the guys going all in preflop a lot let him. It's fine if he picks up a few blinds, wait till you have a big hand, pick him off, and stack him. You also need to adjust your view on luck. Over the course of time cards will break even for everyone. Aces aren't drawn to certain players. I'll flop a set or a flush as much as Phil Hellmuth will, but the reason Phil makes a thousand times more than I ever will is because he plays much better than me. If you really want to get better I'd try reading some NL holdem books. A lot of people say it's outdated but I think Super System is a great book to start with. It reads easy, starts off very broad and gradually gets more advanced but is still manageable for a beginning player to read. It sounds like your biggest problem is your metagame and understanding other players table images correctly and that book will help.
    • darkritual24
      darkritual24
      Basic
      Joined: 30.04.2013 Posts: 25
      Originally posted by football123
      It sounds like your biggest problem is your metagame and understanding other players table images correctly and that book will help.
      You nailed it, i usually stick to plan A which is, raise 3 big blind preflop with a nice hand, if the flop looks good, i bet 3/4 of the pot on all phases.

      After 20-30 hands the chip leaders figured me out and stop falling into my traps.

      If i had to make a list of all my biggest flaws it would be :

      1. metagame
      2. table image
      3. taking notes more often
      4. hand reading

      I'll give your book a try and we'll see if there's some improvements.
    • football123
      football123
      Basic
      Joined: 13.03.2013 Posts: 31
      It's written by Doyle Brunson who's considered the godfather of poker so I'm sure it will be beneficial for you. It's an older book, but still great. You can get the PDF online for free. Once your done with that I'd check out Harrington on cash games. It elaborates on a lot of the ideas in super system and is pretty much the new standard for NL holdem cash games.
    • darkritual24
      darkritual24
      Basic
      Joined: 30.04.2013 Posts: 25
      Originally posted by football123
      It's written by Doyle Brunson who's considered the godfather of poker so I'm sure it will be beneficial for you.
      I know who he is, i watch a lot of poker after dark episodes whenever i'm on a losing streak.

      Once your done with that I'd check out Harrington on cash games. It elaborates on a lot of the ideas in super system and is pretty much the new standard for NL holdem cash games.
      Great thanks, i've finished reading super system so i'll go read this one too.
    • darkritual24
      darkritual24
      Basic
      Joined: 30.04.2013 Posts: 25
      I just re-read Super System and learned a couple new things.

      Well, first of all, i learned never to bluff or try stealing pots against calling stations.

      I learned you should almost always play suited/unsuited connectors. I should be careful whenever someone re-raise me and my hand could be beaten.

      I should also try taking the pot whenever I'm winning but a card could screw me over.

      Hand : A, A

      Board : A, 9, 2, K

      And finally, when the board is dry and you've got a monster hand, giving a free card is a good way to make more money.

      I've also spotted a huge flaw of mine which is betting too much. I used to bet too little but now, i bet too much and ends up winning small pots and losing very big ones. Ever since i started betting less I've been winning a lot more.

      Overall, it was a good read. Although, i will never follow his advice and become a loose aggressive player. Becoming a pot stealing TAG sounds like a better idea to me
    • darkritual24
      darkritual24
      Basic
      Joined: 30.04.2013 Posts: 25
      I just wanna thanks everyone for all the help, i've took all your suggestions into consideration and now make minimal wage ( 10$ an hour ) at the lowest stake playing zoom poker :D .

      It's pretty good considering i'm playing at the 0.01$/0.02$ table.
    • 1
    • 2