[NL20-NL50] QQ in 3bet pot oop

    • legand73
      legand73
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2010 Posts: 4,135
      Hey Mbml

      once again vs unknown i get 3bet massive on a dry flop. I imagine i'm ahead here but I'm not really sure how to proceed. It seems to me that most people would slowplay this flop if they hit big. Is the fold ok? I was thinking of waiting until i have more hands on this guy before i try play back at him

      IPoker, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (SB): $20 (100 bb)
      BB: $18.18 (90.9 bb)
      MP: $12.61 (63.1 bb)
      CO: $20.79 (104 bb)
      BTN: $22.85 (114.3 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with Q Q
      MP folds, CO raises to $0.60, BTN folds, Hero raises to $1.80, BB folds, CO calls $1.20

      Flop: ($3.80) 8 7 K (2 players)
      Hero bets $2.60, CO raises to $8.80, Hero folds

      Results:
      $9 pot ($0.45 rake)
      Final Board: 8 7 K
      Hero mucked Q Q and lost (-$4.40 net)
      CO mucked and won $8.55 ($4.15 net)


      Vs unknown I don't know exactly what to do.
  • 8 replies
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      Hi.

      Preflop: I think you can make it a little larger to $2.00

      Flop: I think your cbet sizes are way too large in 3b pots. You should just be half potting, even 40% pot is fine on AXXr and KXXr textures. Give yourself cheaper odds on your bluffs.

      This guy is repping such a narrow range of hands. AK would 4bet preflop mostly in late positions, and KQ would probably not raise. Besides you have 2 Qs yourself so you block KQ.

      If you call here, pot will be $19.40 with $10.30 left behind. His raise looks a lot like an OESD to me. Vs a smaller Flop raise I would definitely be calling and then calling on non-straight cards (straight cards are those which improve T9 and maybe 56).

      Vs this larger raise size with absolutely no reads i think folding is acceptable. Do you even know whether he's a fish or reg? Regs tend to be way more polarized here. Fishes are definitely capable of raising any KX here so continuing vs a raise seems bad.

      You should also consider the alternate line of c/c Flop. Balance this by checking KK here always, as well as some combos of KQ and AK.
    • legand73
      legand73
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2010 Posts: 4,135
      Why $2 just make it harder for him to call because i'm oop?

      I'm picking that this guy is most likely a fish. Do you really think villain could play 56 like this? I usually just assume that guys on this limit play top heavy ranges especially in these kinds of spots.

      I'll work on making my cbets a bit smaller on the flop because i find myself in 3bet spots quite often. I find that most guys play fit or fold in 3bet pots so i generally just barrel the flop if i hit or have some semblance of backdoor equity. what else should i be c/c in this spot?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      It's not really about making it harder to call. I think it's more that our range for 3betting OOP is more weighted towards value hands and thus you bet larger with a stronger range of hands (more value)

      If you think he's a fish, then the c/c line makes the most sense.

      A reg rarely raises the Flop with KX here especially on a dry Flop (polarized raising range) so I think it would be way more likely to be some sort of OESD but without reads I think making this assumption may be a little too optimistic
    • legand73
      legand73
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2010 Posts: 4,135
      I haven't looked into much range construction but off hand i think my 3bet range oop has more bluffs in it than value hands. so should i still make it larger?

      assuming he is a fish, why exactly does c/c make more sense? to induce or to pot control?

      yeah i try to be quite cautious with some of my assumptions especially without that many reads. I generally have trouble playing medium to high pockets in 3bet pots like TT, JJ and QQ
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      Originally posted by legand73
      assuming he is a fish, why exactly does c/c make more sense? to induce or to pot control?
      both! that's the cool thing :D
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      if your OOP 3b range contains a higher proportion of air then maybe you might want to re-think your strategy of 3betting. I suppose your range can be wider because you are 3betting vs a wider range, but I'm referring more to the value:bluff ratio.

      Vs a fish if you take the c/c line the fish will often bluff once or twice. Or he will completely misread your hand and pay you off lighter on the Turn or River. To a reg, when you check this KXXr board it's more obvious you have something.
    • legand73
      legand73
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2010 Posts: 4,135
      Yeah my 3betting range oop is something like AQo +, TT+, Axs, Kxs. A lot of guys play fit or fold on the flop in 3bet pots i've noticed so i think it's still profitable. If anything i'd take out hands like K6s-K9s, A5s-A9s but for now i think it's ok.

      Vs a fish if you take the c/c line the fish will often bluff once or twice. Or he will completely misread your hand and pay you off lighter on the Turn or River. To a reg, when you check this KXXr board it's more obvious you have something.


      Is this on Kxxr or Axxr boards or just in general? because if its the former I think i wouldn't be too comfortable playing c/c on two streets w/ like QQ or JJ on Kxxr board. I guess it would depend on the sizing but yeah as i said i'm not too comfortable playing these hands
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      im referring to playing 2nd pair hands in general vs fish. But I prefer betting a mid 2nd pair on a low/mid board on the Flop for thin value, and checking a high 2nd pair on a high board on the Flop.

      87 on 974 - When you bet this flop, you can get floated by a ton of Ace highs and other straight draws or backdoor floats.

      KK on A55r - When you bet this flop you are folding out mostly worse hands and what's left is some weaker PPs like TT/99 but other than that you are isolating yourself vs Ace high so there's little value in a bet.

      Note that 87 is much more vulnerable with 7 pair as compared to KK, with more overcards which can improve villain.