[NL2-NL10] [SH] Model situation in position PF

    • GreenPiece
      GreenPiece
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2010 Posts: 5,962
      Say we have 100bb ES and we're on the BU with A5s.
      TAG from CO raises this range: 22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo.
      And on the BB we have a fish.

      So what is our primary choice, call or raise? We don't have >50% vs CO range but it's not necessary as there is enough dead money in the pot and besides A5s plays well in 3b pot if we suddenly get a call. We don't let the fish enter the pot so easily and get the possibility to win it immediately.

      With the call we somewhat lower value of our high card (and get reverse implied odds with it) as it'll be a multipot but get the fish in it so we have higher implieds if gather street or flush.

      What is better?
  • 5 replies
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,696
      Hi.

      About the TAG CO's range
      How wide do you think an average TAG opens in the CO? I think most TAGs open around 22-25%. The range you have written here is pretty wide because you included A2o-A8o which most TAGs are folding from the CO (even LAGs would fold A2o-A6o pretty often).

      I think this is mostly a call at 100bb. It plays well enough vs a wide range, and you don't really need to have >50% equity to justify calling here.

      "We don't let the fish enter the pot so easily"
      Why would you not want to let the fish in? In fact, I would often flat AA/KK/QQ here to let the fish in. The fish is where you make most of your money from, so you should go out of your way to play more pots vs the fish.

      Summary
      1. A5s plays well with a call (It's strong enough to call so I would call and use weaker hands to 3bet)
      2. Calling allows the fish to come along as well, and we want to play as many pots as possible vs the fish
    • GreenPiece
      GreenPiece
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2010 Posts: 5,962
      Yes, I agree to you that average CO's range is tighter but I wanted to make it wider to make A5s closer to 50% equity vs this range. My questions are:

      1) when can we say "this hand has decent equity vs opp. range"? How can we say when the calling is justified?

      Vs this range or even a bit tighter we have at least 37% with 76s and as we can use its playability and our position to bluff well HU and it plays great in multipot it's a call. But say 32s has about 33-34% and we won't go as low with it and call but rather fold instead.

      And K9o has 40% vs the range but we probably don't wont to call with it or play multipot with fish, right?

      2) you say it clear that even with strongest hands you'd better call to keep the fish in the pot. Is it applicable to play IP or OOP as well? Say CO raises, we're on the SB and the fish is on BB.

      3) it's the continuation of the 2nd question: high cards lose value in multipot but implieds from fish compensate it, right? How low can we go with the desire to play as many pots with fish as possible? Say, if CO raises, we're on the BU with AA and both SB and BB are fish, will we still call or raise?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,696
      1. Well you should be thinking more along the lines of playability and how your hand fares vs various groups of hands. K9o has poor playability whereas 76s has better playability

      2. It's definitely applicable OOP. but the smaller the initial raise size, the less likely I am to take such a line. For example if BU minraised to 2bb and I'm in the SB with a fish in the BB, i prefer 3betting to 6bb and hopefully the fish will come in. But let's say UTG opens to 4bb an we are in SB, then I think flatting here is more sensible.

      Having position is great, but with a fish in the hand, I would often lead strong hands in multi-way pots. So position is not THAT important.

      3. It depends on a few factors
      A) How big the fishes are: If the fishes are monster whales, I think you are better off 3-betting because they will cold call with a ton of trash as well. If you flat here, you are going to be playing 4-way which is terrible for AA. I am willing to play 3way with AA with a fish in the hand but not 4way. If you calculate your equity with AA vs 4 random hands, you'll find that with each additional player you'll lose a lot more equity.
      B) Raise size: I already mentioned this in point 2, but smaller raises offer better pot odds so you'll increase the likelihood of having 4way/5way pots if you call a 2bb open than a 4bb open.
    • GreenPiece
      GreenPiece
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2010 Posts: 5,962
      Thank you for your time! I have more questions though.

      1) we're playing FR and have UTG with 12\10 stats over a decent sample. He OR's 4bb, everyone folds to us, we're on the BU and hold AQo (no fish on blinds this time). We're not favorites vs his 5% and what about playability of this hand?

      We can categorize hands like this:
      • High cards + suited value
      • High cards + connected value
      • Suited+connected value
      • Pairs

      Obviously we can't rely on this alone but should also look at equity of the hand, possible implied and reverse implied odds. We can't rely on implieds when hitting A or Q, as we won't get value from worse. We can probably make float on K or J high boards and see what is going to happen on the turn but in this perspective we can as well call 54s and try to win the pot UI.

      If it were COvsBU we can count on fold equity when calling with good hands like small suited connectors, on fold equity and set mining when calling with pairs, on dominating his range (value) when calling with high value cards, we can justify reasons for every hand category.

      And what about UTGvsBU? His range is stronger, we can still rely on set mining so we will call pairs. We can even float some boards and hope to see a check on the turn to probably take our chance considering some fold equity. Can we play connectors in such situation? Can we play AQo or KQ?

      2) what about hands like AK in the sample with TAG-opener and fish on the blinds, which are very strong preflop but need decent flops to continue?

      3) am I understanding it right: we're are better off calling if the pot size is decent to make it potentially AI on the river; and it'll be no more than a 3way pot as long as our hand is great to stack off with preflop and the fish is in the pot? So if it'll be 4way with a high probability and our hand has some value but not to be played in multipot, say KQo (AK perhaps, relied to question 2), it's better to raise?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,696
      1) About AQ - Fold because nothing good comes out of calling vs a 5% range.
      When you compare AQ vs 5%, as compared to A5s vs 30% opening range from CO, those two are worlds apart. For the 5% UTG range, the villain will have an over pair on most flop textures about half the time. You are virtually forced to fold on most flops. On the other hand, with A5s vs a wider range, there are many things you can do to win the pot, either by floating or raising.

      About most of your other points, I agree with them. Can you call connectors vs UTG? It depends on how tight UTG's range is once again. If villain is going to have over-pairs almost always, your playability is going to be really poor. However if villain has a 12%+ range, generally you can start to call with much more hands because you are then able to fight for way more pots.

      2) With AKo I probably just 3bet it, it doesn't play well multi-way. With AKs I would call some of the time.

      3) if raise size is bigger: easier to get stacks in by river, and less likelihood of 4way+ action. Yes, whatever you said is mostly right.