[NL2-NL10] NL FR 10, Broadway gets Nutcrackered on Fourth Street

    • GrantJennings
      GrantJennings
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.07.2008 Posts: 232
      Hi everyone. This is the first hand I've ever submitted for analysis. I'm a low limit Tag or Lag depending on the table (and I'm a fish more often than I'd like). Anyway, this situation has happened to me twice in the past two days. Once, my nuts held and I busted a guy for $8, but today the same situation cost me $14, so I guess you could say that the way I handle my nuts causes a leak.

      Is there another way to play this hand? When I'm sure my opponent has a broadway pocket pair and just hit his set, should I slow play my broadway straight so that I can get away if the board pairs on fourth street?

      Below is the transcript from the hand, which I've edited to include the conversation I was having with a fish (who's name has been changed to protect the innocent), about the definition of "second nuts." Maybe the hand analysts will point out that I jinxed myself with my table talk.

      The hero is the handsome one in Seat 3:

      Poker Stars
      No Limit Holdem Ring game
      Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
      9 players
      Converter

      Hero is UTG with $19.05 in chips
      TAG villain is in MP3 with $13.90 in chips

      Ford's_Towel said, "like there is only one hand that could beat it, so it's not the absolute nuts, but the second nuts."

      Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is UTG with Q A
      Hero raises to $0.3, 3 folds, MP3 raises to $1, 4 folds, Hero calls.

      *fish* said, "what can beat AA? it's best hand"

      Flop: K J T ($2.15, 2 players)
      Hero bets $0.8, MP3 raises to $2.4, Hero raises all-in $18.05, MP3 calls all-in $10.5.
      Uncalled bets: $5.15 returned to Hero.

      Ford's_Towel said, "Hey *fish*, here are the nuts"

      Turn: T ($27.95, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $27.95)


      River: 3 ($27.95, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $27.95)

      Ford's_Towel said, "ho!"
      Ford's_Towel said, "drew out on me, you slippery guy!"
      Ford's_Towel said, "wonderful hand."
      *fish* said, "nice shot"
      Villain said, "top set, can't fold"
      *fish* said, "kick ace hand :p"
      Ford's_Towel said, "of course not. But when I flop the nuts, I'm all in."
      Ford's_Towel said, "That's the second time that near-exact hand has happened to me in two days, but yesterday my broadway straight held up."
      Ford's_Towel said, "I'm totally on tilt now, I have to quit."
      *fish* said, "take a few mins"
      *fish* said, "drink a coke"

      Yesterday the only difference was that I had A10 suited utg, my opponent also had kings, and the straight held. The betting was almost exactly the same as well, raise, re raise, all in on the flop.

      I know A10 suited and AQ off are borderline in early position, and I don't play them unless the table is giving me lots of respect (when this happens, I start raising 3xBB instead of 4xBB, and raising with more hands). Since both times I was re raised a reasonable amount by a big stack, I figured I'd go fishing and see what I could reel in on the flop. The first time, I got a nice catch, but the second time, I got pulled right out of the boat.

      Ok, there's lots to say about this, but if you have any ideas about how to protect my big stack against nutcrackings such as this one, I'm all ears!
  • 5 replies
    • Hellrabbit
      Hellrabbit
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2007 Posts: 54
      Don't feel bad about this. You threw it in while you were ahead (about 65% favorite) and more often than not you'll take it down.

      This was a +EV decision and in the long run you'll earn money on this one. Ofcourse you can't really blame villain for pushing here either since he was holding second nuts.

      Got cold decked, that's poker :p
    • Faye6891
      Faye6891
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.11.2007 Posts: 1,234
      AT is a fold in EP, but AQ is OK to raise. I'd fold to his 3-bet though.

      As played, the flop is almost OK. I'd bet a little more ($1.70) and push to his raise.

      You did what you had to do, you put your money in when you're ahead, you actually protected your hand and got the most value out of it. You have no control over the cards that fall on the board, so don't worry about it, it was well played post-flop, but you can't expect to win 100% of the time since your opponent is not drawing dead. :P
    • GrantJennings
      GrantJennings
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.07.2008 Posts: 232
      Thanks for the comments. I'm aware I'm +EV with a push on the flop, but I am wondering if there is a better line for these sorts of nut situations where the nuts are vulnerable.

      Say I just call the reraise on the flop. At this point, I have a very strong read that this player has a set. If I wait for the turn to push all in, or even wait until the river, I think I'll still get a call with the push, but if the board pairs, I can get out cheap.

      About the only hands I could put him on that don't beat me when the board pairs are AK or AA, otherwise he'll call my all in with the trips. The only danger to this approach is that he might hit a Q and counterfeit my straight if he has the AK or AA, or the board might pair and AK or AA might bet out strong, and I might end up folding the best.

      I've been trying to learn Omaha, and one of the principles is that you shouldn't get too attached to a nut straight on the flop, because it's too easy for people to improve past you. I know holdem is different, but in this spot I have a good read that he has 7 outs on the turn and 10 on the river to improve past me. Does this justify a slow play, or am I overthinking this?

      Again, I really appreciate the comments.
    • Hellrabbit
      Hellrabbit
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2007 Posts: 54
      Basically, when you're holding the nuts and villain might have a redraw : make him pay heavily for his other cards. Never give him any free or cheap streets, you'll only be getting yourself in marginal positions (like when the board actually pairs). When you have equity, build up those pots, it maximises value in the long run !
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Hi GrantJennings,
      Welcome to the no limit forum

      When I´ve started playing nl10 fullring, I also wanted to get away situations where I didn´t held the nuts: like KK vs AA pf, bottom set vs possible top set.
      The important thing is: that doesn´t affect your winrate, when you can make very thin laydowns, like straight on paired board.
      Important is not to get stacked top or overpair hands against passive player or not valuebetting enough with your strong hands.
      I would bet/fold AQ 100% oop even in SH games, since there is too high chance that I´m against AK and when I hit A or Q I loose one stack, since I wanted to see flop. You flop straight very few times, so don´t play that hand oop agaisnt re-raise. Fullring you could also bet/fold on the BU, since most players don´t re-raise light.
      Don´t just call his re-raise on the flop. You don´t want to see a lot of cards and better is to get your money all-in in favorite.