[NL2-NL10] [SH] cbet size?

    • GreenPiece
      GreenPiece
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2010 Posts: 5,962
      PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) ZOOM - Holdem - 6 players

      Opponent unknown

      BTN: $10.03
      Hero (SB): $5.00
      BB: $5.23
      UTG: $5.05
      MP: $12.73
      CO: $7.74

      Hero posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

      Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has 4:heart: 4:club:

      fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, fold, BTN calls $0.30

      Flop: ($0.85, 2 players) K:diamond: 5:diamond: Q:club:
      Hero ?

      My thoughts are like this. We should unify our sizings on wet & dry boards to make it the same both with value hands & bluffs. Here with hand like KK I would make it around 75%, 0.6$ because board is drawy.
  • 5 replies
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,697
      Hi.

      Preflop: I think 44 is a really bad hand to 3bet with. Small pocket pairs play really poorly in 3b pots as they can rarely improve or Turn additional equity which is great if you want to keep up with your aggression and barrel many Turns and Rivers.

      This could be ok if you think BU will 4bet bluff a lot, then you can jam over with a 5bet. However, I don't think that's the case here. Besides, he only min-raised and while I'm usually not too keen on calling in the SB, I think this is a decent spot to do so.

      Flop: This is a 3b pot, so you should be making smaller bet sizes in general. I think anything more than 2/3 is way too large. If I wanted to have a standard size on this texture, it'll be around 55-65%. 50 cents looks good.

      Should you cbet here though? I think it's fine to delay cbet. Check the Flop and if he checks back, you can bet the Turn. I think broadways are never folding to the flop cbet and pocket pairs probably fold to the delayed cbet anyway.
    • GreenPiece
      GreenPiece
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2010 Posts: 5,962
      After I realize your process of thought I understand that I'm fish who's trying to build up a framework of right questions throughout the hand :)

      Please answer some more questions:
      1) am I right, you prefer not to 3b weak PP here as:
      • Opponent minraises from BU and there's no pro shortstacker or sick reg so we assume he's a fish => lower FE we have and weak PPs and connectors are the hands that need this FE to be played profitably in an agressive way
      • His minraise creates less dead money in the pot
      • We're OOP and cannot barrel profitably on even scary boards like A-high, K-high as he will find many reasons to call

      2) what PPs can we 3b for value, 77+? What's the range with good equity and decent playability vs him, say, A2s+,A7o+,KTs+,KJo,QTs+,JTs,77+?
      3) if he raised 3bb we wouldn't assume he's a fish and there will be more money in the pot so it would be a 3b, right? And if he raises 2.5bb? And if he limps what our raising range would be?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,697
      1) It's not so much about the FE, I just think there are better hands to 3b bluff with like J7s which plays better in 3b pots. This is assuming that we can only 3b a limited number of times.

      a. he minraises = cheaper odds to call, less dead money to take down, calling is better
      b. as i mentioned previously, pocket pairs have poor playability especially OOP. they tend to play better in single-raised pots cos you can set-mine better in single-raised pots but in huge 3b pots they just don't hit sets very often.

      2) 77-99 do not play well in 3b pots as well. In order to justify 3betting them, you'll need villain to call with a ton of worse hands (lower PPs, small suited connectors like 56s or A2s) OR 4bet a lot so you can jam over the 4bets.

      Are you talking about an opening range or a calling range of A2s+,A7o+,KTs+,KJo,QTs+,JTs,77+? I think 3betting TT+/all broadways as a standard is fine. You can flat the smaller pocket pairs sometimes, and you can add some 3b bluffs with 98s or A5s. I don't want to go into too much detail cos that would take a really long time, but main takeaway is that vs a min-raise I would consider calling here, and vs a 3bb i would just fold all small PPs here.

      3) Raise size has absolutely nothing to do with whether he's a fish or not. I min-raise all the time from the BU. It really depends on the situation, and how the raise size fits in with the player's overall game plan. For example if BU is raising a really tight range, it would be pretty dumb to minraise his range. But if he is raising with 80% of hands, now it's better to use a smaller raise size for a weaker range.

      Vs more passive opponents, it also makes sense to use larger bet sizes. I would assume that a larger raise size from the Bu would probably be better at NL5

      Thanks.
    • GreenPiece
      GreenPiece
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.06.2010 Posts: 5,962
      I'm trying to figure out what "play better in 3b pots" mean... What are so particular things about 3b pot? Worse pot-to-stack ration in comparison to single raise pots, worse implieds but also lower reverse implieds.
      From this I can deduce that we're better off playing high cards and higher potential flushes so hands like Axs and probably Kxs are good to 3b with, right? But you also name J7s, 98s. They can't be called, right? So they're in a fold range basically. But when we want to add bluff 3b range why do we add these hands along with A5s? What am I missing?

      When I thought about 3betting with 77-99 I assumed that people tend to call more often in position so they may call with lower PPs (just feeling too sorry to fold them) and stuff like Axs.

      When I said he's a fish based on his minraise my thought was the following one. I think people play more straightforward on these limits so it may be very fine to OR small vs good regs who can exploit you otherwise but does he really have a very wide range here to justify this action? I see a lot of minraises from every position and 3b them pretty wide and a lot of times they fold either preflop or on the flop after cbet. I don't know what their aim is but I think they can be exploited in a good way. This correlates with what you said, they open small as their range is weak but they do not 4b with proper frequencies and don't play aggressively postflop.

      And you say it's clear, it's better not to 3b low PPs vs 3bb OR as they have poor playability in 3b pots, it's neither for value nor for bluff and if to call them we can't rely on implieds and being OOP it'll be harder to perform actions based on FE for them to be profitable, right thoughts?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,697
      Pair value becomes more important and speculative value becomes less important as the stack to pot ratio gets smaller.

      J7s 98s are tough to play with a call in the SB so you can 3bet them. Basically pick the best hands you are otherwise folding to add to your 3betting range.

      About minraising: I think someone who min-raises at lower limits from early position is usually a bad player. Not necessarily the case from the BU or CO or SB. I just think making a sweeping generalization purely based on his BU min-raise is not a good idea. Other reads like stack sizes are more accurate in general.

      About 3betting PP, you are on the right track