How much should BU defend vs BB's resteal depending on BB's 3B range?

    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Hey,

      I'm looking at SH games.
      By how much BU should defend I mean not folding i.e calling and 4Betting.


      Let's say I open x% from BU, opening 2x, and BB 3B to 7bb.
      What % of my opening range should I be defending vs y% 3B?
  • 14 replies
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      (2+0.5+1)/6=0.58
      But that's how it works when u only defend by 4betting. When u call u should call a little bit more coz opponent will win the pot postflop very often. U can simply multiply calling range by something like 1.5, this will give u approximate range u should defend, but this method isn't very accurate.

      P.S. If u open more than 40% of BU, it's almost impossible to have balanced defending range unless u wanna play hands like K5s in 3bet pots.
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Let me clarify a bit my question :)

      I open BU 40% and BB 3B 10% what should be my continuing range (calling 3B+4B)?

      What if BB 3B 2%, 5%, 12%, 15%?

      I am not trying to defend to avoid BB to profitably 3B any 2 here but to adapt my continuing range to his 3B range.

      Thanks!
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Personally i'd defend only PP and QQ+AK against an under 5% 3b range.

      Vs a very high 3bet range like 15% i'd defend anything playable and try to outplay them postflop.

      Vs a more ballanced 5-15% range it gets a bit more complicated.

      Thats just a super general gameplan i go by but every spot is different. Like if you play vs a lot of bad regs that have a 15% 3bet range but only continue with JJ+ and AK and then fold 80% vs 4bets then im obviously 4betting them a ton, like almost anything that i can't call with i'll 4bet.

      Other things i look at is their c/f in 3bet pots, their overall c-bet and barreling frequencies in 3bet pots, their fold vs raise.

      You also have to keep in mind that just because my 3bet vs BU is 10% that doesn't mean that i 3bet 10% vs you specifically. In fact if you never fold to 3bets im only 3betting you like 5% in this spot and if you have like ridic high fold to 3bet then i might be 3betting even as high as 70%, especially if your one of the 24 tablers that won't pick up on that.

      Always keep in mind to keep your own image(or at least your general stats) in mind and how this will effect how other people play vs you.
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      hey MatejM47,

      Yeah I agree with pretty much everything you said.

      I assume villain is a good reg. I am looking at some sort of maths behind how much I should be defending vs x% resteal range.

      So far every one I talked to go "by feeling" which I also do atm tbh but I'm looking to go the next step :)
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      Yeah, in general I think u can defend something down to K9s, Q9s,J9s,97s,55,QJo,KTo,ATo against 15% 3bet. Just tighten up a little bit against tighter 3bettors.
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Originally posted by getdotacom
      Yeah, in general I think u can defend something down to K9s, Q9s,J9s,97s,55,QJo,KTo,ATo against 15% 3bet. Just tighten up a little bit against tighter 3bettors.
      yeah pretty much it, even though it seems like a calling range.

      But there must be a mathematical way of determining our overall defending range depending on BB's 3B range, assuming equally skilled player.

      So yeah if anyone knows how to do that I would appreciate it.
    • ItsAValueBluff
      ItsAValueBluff
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.10.2012 Posts: 92
      there is no exact formula for that, if you want equity you can just call every hand that has more than 33% equity vs his range, if your opponent and you are both about equally skilled just defend enough so you cant get exploited. Poker, especially postflop is not that easy to calculate so there is no formula for what you can really profitably defend. Also depends a lot if your opponent has postflop leaks (stats).
      I would just defend something that cant get exploited like defending 40% of your range, which is probably not enough if you defend mostly by calling, which you should if your 4betting range is somewhat balanced and your opening range 50%+. I know freeroll effect blablabla but if people see your fold to 3bet is 60% or slightly under they arent gonna 3bet superloose so its fine.
      After you applied that for a couple 10k hands just look at holdem manager which hands you can defend profitably (i.e. loosing less than 200BB/100 - the minraise needs to be discounted) and which not and just get a feel vs what 3betting range and in which situation you can defend which hands. So if the weakest hands that you defend loose less than 200BB/100 you can add more hands, if they do loose that or more cut them off. Also as i said it mostly depends on your opponent if he gives up a lot just add a lot of suited hands etc.
      Also: There is not much edge to be gained by knowing EXACTLY which hands you need to defend f.e. if you defend a hand like 97s (vs a reasonable 3bettingrange and your opening range is wide too) or not is probably just a very marginal difference so you don't need to know which hands exactly but get a good feel for what should be profitable and what not.
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Originally posted by ItsAValueBluff
      there is no exact formula for that,
      Why wouldn't there any?
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Originally posted by Dublimax
      Originally posted by ItsAValueBluff
      there is no exact formula for that,
      Why wouldn't there any?
      At the end of the day this is nothing more than a GTO situation.
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782
      When you know how wide the 3bet range is, it doesnt matter what the original opening range was to determine your defends.

      Unless you want to say the 3bettor picks which hands he is 3betting y% with against the opening range, so that a 10% 3bet is different vs 20% open and 50% open.


      Against some given 3bet range it's not easy to say what hands you can defend, but you can just ask 10 strong players for their opinion and then take the average, that will be pretty solid.

      Generally anything below 15% 3bet against button I open 100% and fold to 3bet 80+%.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      Originally posted by lnternet
      When you know how wide the 3bet range is, it doesnt matter what the original opening range was to determine your defends.

      Unless you want to say the 3bettor picks which hands he is 3betting y% with against the opening range, so that a 10% 3bet is different vs 20% open and 50% open.


      Against some given 3bet range it's not easy to say what hands you can defend, but you can just ask 10 strong players for their opinion and then take the average, that will be pretty solid.

      Generally anything below 15% 3bet against button I open 100% and fold to 3bet 80+%.

      i think they are talking about 6max, so for 6max I suppose you are taking the sum of SB+BB 3bets?
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Yeah that's for 6 max games
    • tolari
      tolari
      Black
      Joined: 02.11.2010 Posts: 761
      .
    • jakelamotta
      jakelamotta
      Basic
      Joined: 11.01.2013 Posts: 10
      Originally posted by getdotacom
      (2+0.5+1)/6=0.58
      But that's how it works when u only defend by 4betting. When u call u should call a little bit more coz opponent will win the pot postflop very often. U can simply multiply calling range by something like 1.5, this will give u approximate range u should defend, but this method isn't very accurate.

      P.S. If u open more than 40% of BU, it's almost impossible to have balanced defending range unless u wanna play hands like K5s in 3bet pots.
      I actually think its interesting as it shows us how laggy games should be, in those positions. Its difficult to defend that much though and you need to play very well, just dont fold 80% of the time is my simple advice.