Probe bets

    • Tosh5457
      Tosh5457
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      Joined: 18.01.2008 Posts: 3,062
      Let's say I got K2 on BB, 2 limpers come, SB fold, I check. Flop comes AKJ with 2 suited cards. Should I bet here? the problem is that I'm oop, I don't have a kicker and there are 2 suited cards.
  • 12 replies
    • Sasa1234
      Sasa1234
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      Joined: 22.05.2008 Posts: 298
      I think you should fold, betting here would be just like bluffing...
    • Tosh5457
      Tosh5457
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      Joined: 18.01.2008 Posts: 3,062
      Originally posted by Sasa1234
      I think you should fold, betting here would be just like bluffing...
      Well my king might be the best, so a bet here would be mostly to get information. I jus dont like doing this on this spot because I'm oop and it's a dangerous flop. That's precisely my question, should I bet in this spot with TPNK..
    • jmackenzie
      jmackenzie
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      Joined: 04.06.2008 Posts: 1,241
      live game yes
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    • fun101rockets
      fun101rockets
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      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,162
      I think check/ folding is best
    • ManniXXX
      ManniXXX
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      Joined: 05.09.2007 Posts: 707
      Check/fold flop. Bet/fold a blank turn imo.
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
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      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      Originally posted by Tosh5457
      Originally posted by Sasa1234
      I think you should fold, betting here would be just like bluffing...
      Well my king might be the best, so a bet here would be mostly to get information. I jus dont like doing this on this spot because I'm oop and it's a dangerous flop. That's precisely my question, should I bet in this spot with TPNK..
      Hello tosh,

      Sasa1234 is right! betting out with second pair is like turning your hand into a bluff. Calls are bad for you, as well as raises, so since youre hoping for folds, you might as well have 72o here.

      Guideline I can give you for hitting top pair is... and this is just what I do:

      If the blinds are high, and I can c/r all in, I do it. If I hit top pair with Q2o for example in a freeplay, I check, and when opponent bets, I usually c/r.

      I think your question was more about low blinds. In that case, I usually check call with top pair no kicker, b/c youre often either way ahead or way behind, and with c/c you get value from bluffs, while donking out actually turns your hand into a bluff. I usually dont c/c 3 barrels with it, unless I have a strong read, but usually c/c-ing the flop is viewed as pretty strong, and youll often be able to check towards a free showdown, or sometimes even valuebet (peel) the river.

      Its a hard question to answer in general, because different situations ask for different plays. I advice you to attent the sng coachings, and see how they (we) handle different freeplay situations where we hit the board (I often call that bb special).
    • Tosh5457
      Tosh5457
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      Joined: 18.01.2008 Posts: 3,062
      Hmm I go to portuguese coachings, I went to the english once but the coacher was playing SNGs turbo, which I dont like.

      Helemaalnicks but my bet is just to see if my 2nd pair is good, isnt it ok? If I get a raise I fold, if I get called I try to get a cheap showdown.
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
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      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      Originally posted by Tosh5457
      Hmm I go to portuguese coachings, I went to the english once but the coacher was playing SNGs turbo, which I dont like.

      Helemaalnicks but my bet is just to see if my 2nd pair is good, isnt it ok? If I get a raise I fold, if I get called I try to get a cheap showdown.
      its a bluff. Dont bet for information, bet for value. You cant bet for value with second pair, so dont bet. The point is, only better hands will call you, so your bet will only lose you money, since worse hands will never call. Worse hands may bet though, so in some situations, even with 2nd pair c/c can be good. If you want your opponents to fold their hands with your bet, then your bet is a bluff. If you want your opponents to call with worse hands to your bet, then your bet is a valuebet. There is no "in between" bet. You either bet so worse hands call, which will win you money, or you bet so better hands fold, which will win you money. With 2nd pair, both reasons mentioned above are hardly ever the case. C/c is a way with which you can sometimes induce bets from worse hands, so that is sometin that is often best with a marginal hand like 2nd pair.

      I went to the english once but the coacher was playing SNGs turbo, which I dont like.


      it's the same game. Turbo is just better for coachings imo because we dont have a lot of time, and we want to show pple all phases of the sng.

      But im sure the portueguese coach is qualified as well, so gj on attending his coachings. You might wanna ask this question to him, at the beginning of the coaching, so he can explain if he hits his bb how he plays it and why.
    • Tosh5457
      Tosh5457
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      Joined: 18.01.2008 Posts: 3,062

      its a bluff. Dont bet for information, bet for value. You cant bet for value with second pair, so dont bet. The point is, only better hands will call you, so your bet will only lose you money, since worse hands will never call. Worse hands may bet though, so in some situations, even with 2nd pair c/c can be good. If you want your opponents to fold their hands with your bet, then your bet is a bluff. If you want your opponents to call with worse hands to your bet, then your bet is a valuebet. There is no "in between" bet. You either bet so worse hands call, which will win you money, or you bet so better hands fold, which will win you money. With 2nd pair, both reasons mentioned above are hardly ever the case. C/c is a way with which you can sometimes induce bets from worse hands, so that is sometin that is often best with a marginal hand like 2nd pair.
      I see harrington talking of probe betting a lot, so we know how strong our hand is. But maybe he's assuming there's a good probability that my opponents don't have anything worth calling with and I can take down the pot.
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
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      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      I see harrington talking of probe betting a lot, so we know how strong our hand is. But maybe he's assuming there's a good probability that my opponents don't have anything worth calling with and I can take down the pot.


      HoH is mainly about mtt and qualifiers, in which your bluff frequency should be a bit higher. Thereby, I dont recall him talking about making probebets with 2nd pair, since that'd be a bit strange, for the reasons I mentioned above. Probebetting can be ok, but the hands to do it with imho are top pair or better or air without showdownvalue.
    • Tosh5457
      Tosh5457
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      Joined: 18.01.2008 Posts: 3,062
      Originally posted by helemaalnicks
      HoH is mainly about mtt and qualifiers, in which your bluff frequency should be a bit higher. Thereby, I dont recall him talking about making probebets with 2nd pair, since that'd be a bit strange, for the reasons I mentioned above. Probebetting can be ok, but the hands to do it with imho are top pair or better or air without showdownvalue.
      Hmm but isnt the strategy of SNGs essentially the same as MTTs? I use the same strategy on both. Sorry, he probably didnt talk of probe bets with 2nd pair, I was just saying he did talk about them.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      To newer players SnG's and MTT's seem the same. There not, in fact imo, they play totally differently, but playing SnG's will give you a solid base to work on MTT play.