Moving up Micro stakes

    • Acespeci
      Acespeci
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2012 Posts: 340
      I am currently beating $0.25 cents 45man MTT at Pokerstars playing 16 tables (4 tables at once) in my session and I have the Bankroll to skip the $0.50cents Turbo 45man and play $1 45man MTT.

      I took some shots at the $1 45man but it didn't go well. I dont think I have the skills to take on that limit and the $0.50cents Turbo theres too much variance. :f_frown:

      I get most of my money from Guaranteed $ Torny but it is too long just to get a small payout. :s_frown:

      In order to move up should I take more shots at $1 45man or make my next limit to move up be the $0.50 turbo 45man and try to get use to turbo?

      Or increase my tables at the $0.25 45man to 24 tables (6 tables at once) and continue beating it untill I have excess buy-ins to take a shot and the skill required?

      Or just stick with Guaranteed $ Torny since that is building my Bankroll the most regardless of the long session to just min cash and ignore playing a regular limit? :s_love:

      I really want to move up stakes please help
  • 35 replies
    • Asaban
      Asaban
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      Hey Acespeci and welcome back to the tournament strategy forum!

      I hope to see further postings from you in the future.

      My recommendation would be to play the .25 45men MTSNG's until you have a bankroll of 100$+. Then move up to the .50 turbo's and try to get used to the new structure.

      In the long run you will have to focus on turbo's anyways, since they are a lot more efficient and there isn't much traffic in non-turbo mtsng's on higher limits anyways.

      Furthermore you should work on improving your multitabling skills. Most regulars in mtsng's play 12 tables+. Some even as many as 20 at the same time. So there is definitly some room for improvements here.

      I wouldn't recommend playing a lot of regular mtt's until your bankroll reaches 400$ or more. The variance is just to high imo.

      If you have any further questions feel free to ask!

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 234
      First off you can read Adams Poker Adventure. He is playing the 0.25 and $1 45mans and is doing rather well at them.

      Secondly, if you have not twined your Pokerstars account with Full Tilt, then do so. Because you can transfer your bankroll between sites. Giving you more choice with your bankroll building.

      Full Tilt has reduced the rake on their $1 micro stakes SNGs from 16.66% to a more reasonable 12%. I suppose they have done this to improve the traffic because FT is struggling at the moment with player numbers.

      At FT, you can play non-turbo nine-man SNGS, 18-man, 27-man for $1 which includes the 12% rake. Compare that to Pokerstars $1.50 18-mans with 14% rake. So by playing on FT, the games cost less, and come with a better rake structure. I would recommend the 18-mans to you. Less people to get through than the 45mans, and so less variance.

      On Pokerstars, the $1.50 9-man knockout SNGs are good value, rake wise. At 10% if you include the total buy-in of $1.50. These games are soft, full of fish chasing the bounties, although they do attract regs for that exact same reason. So table select wisely when playing these. You can spot the regs because they will register to several games at the same time in the lobby. Simply colour code them for future reference.
    • Asaban
      Asaban
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      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,241
      Thank you arthurbentley for sharing your tips =)

      I'd like to add my opinion on them, because I disagree slightly:
      I would not recommend splitting your bankroll at this point of time. You should really focus on one site and one structure and try to get good at this one, before moving to other adventures.

      FTP is worth a look - but imo that's about it. Sure, there are a few valuable tournaments as well as good structured (rake wise) mtsng's. Problem is, that there is substantially less traffic and way more good players on average. Therefore I wouldn't suggest playing FTP at this point in time.

      Furthermore I wouldn't suggest 18men mtsng's. Yes, the variance is a lot smaller! Downside is, that ICM is way more important and really fundamental. Imo that is not a good idea when you start your poker carrier. Furthermore you won't be able to achieve a ROI that is nearly as good as the one you might achieve with 45men or bigger mtsng's. Lastly they play pretty much like a single table SNG and they don't have much in common with normal MTT's. If you consider playing MTT's in the future you should practise them - and therefore not play 18men mtsng's, but bigger one's.

      Same thing with the single table SNG's obv. Low ROI, not much in common with MTT's and more difficult to play then mtsng's.

      From my point of view, Acespeci took the right choice with playing 45men mtsng's. It's a good way to go. However, this is just my personal view. Feel free to ignore it and play whatever you think is best for you - this is most important. You have to feel good doing it. There is no point in playing something which doesn't feel right for you, solely because someone told you it's best to do so.

      @arthurbentley: Please don't take this posting as an offense or even critic on your posting. I really appreciate it if players give tips to others. I just want to state my opinion and hope it might help someone in his or her decision making process.

      As always: Feel free to ask if there are any further questions!

      EDIT: @arthurbentley: You mention "Adams poker adventure". Can you provide a link?

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 234
      Firstly, I didn't say split the bankroll. You can move your entire bankroll between the two sites when you see fit. Also, the OP says he is struggling with the $1 45-mans, so that is why I suggested the 18-mans. If the OP manages to reach the money bubble more often in 18-mans, as opposed to constantly losing half-way in 45-mans ($1 games) then playing the 18-mans is the way to go. Putting ICM considerations aside, are you telling me 18-mans are not profitable?

      I have had a look at the $1 games on FT. They are full of fish!!!! Maybe I railed an easy table, but the game I witnessed was full of limpers and generally, but not always, passive players. Enough weak players to make a profit I'd say. The final table stage quickly arrived at the 120 BB mark. It was a donkfest!

      Yes. The traffic isn't great for the SNGs at FT but he can transfer immediately back to Pokerstars at the click of a button. It's almost as if you have something against Full Tilt!!!!!! :D

      The OP is killing the 0.25 45-mans, and struggling with the $1. He may have just hit a spell of negative variance. The $1 games are not that much more difficult than the 0.25 games.

      What the OP decides to do is his choice. I just pointed out to him how to manage his bankroll between FT and Pokerstars.

      If the OP doesn't want to play at FT then I would recommend that he keep playing the games that he is crushing and build up his bankroll some more. Then have a shot at the $1 games. Moving back down if he runs bad.
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
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      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 234
      I have just had a look at your results. You made something like 14% roi in the $1.50 9-man SNGs which are saddled with a 14% rake. The 9-man $1.50 knockout SNGs are raked at 10% overall. So that is potentially another 4% to your ROI if you played these instead. Furthermore, these knockouts are softer with the donks chasing the bounties with their trash holdings.
    • Acespeci
      Acespeci
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2012 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by Asaban
      My recommendation would be to play the .25 45men MTSNG's until you have a bankroll of 100$+. Then move up to the .50 turbo's and try to get used to the new structure.

      Thanks for your recommendation.

      I will do this and let you know how it goes.

      I cant wait to move up. At $0.25 thers is too many fishes
    • Acespeci
      Acespeci
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      Joined: 19.04.2012 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by arthurbentley
      First off you can read Adams Poker Adventure. He is playing the 0.25 and $1 45mans and is doing rather well at them.
      I saw his Blog. Thanks for recommending it

      Originally posted by arthurbentley
      Secondly, if you have not twined your Pokerstars account with Full Tilt, then do so. Because you can transfer your bankroll between sites. Giving you more choice with your bankroll building.
      Yes, I do have my Pokerstars account link with them. I cant transfer any more to FT back because I will lose my deposit bonus because I transfer from there to start my Poker carreer

      Originally posted by arthurbentley
      On Pokerstars, the $1.50 9-man knockout SNGs are good value, rake wise. At 10% if you include the total buy-in of $1.50. These games are soft, full of fish chasing the bounties, although they do attract regs for that exact same reason..
      SNG is less ROI although less variance. Plus the fishes going to double up another player to dominate the board or bust you with bad hands. Plus you will have to get 1st place a lot to have good ROI. I use to play SNG and was tired of breaking even

      45man MTT I was told is great for building a bankroll
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 234
      SNG is less ROI although less variance. Plus the fishes going to double up another player to dominate the board or bust you with bad hands. Plus you will have to get 1st place a lot to have good ROI. I use to play SNG and was tired of breaking even


      You are not breakeven on the $1.50 9-mans. You have an excellent 14% roi in these games. Potentially, 18% if you had played the 9-man knockouts instead. But yes, the 0.25 games are good for bankroll building, and if you are happy with these, then I agree that you should continue playing them until you have enough to play the $1 and beyond.

      The 45-mans are my favourite game also.
    • Acespeci
      Acespeci
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      Joined: 19.04.2012 Posts: 340
      [quote][i]Originally posted by arthurbentley

      The 45-mans are my favourite game also.[/quote]Which limit are you playing?


      What are some profitable tricks or techniques that I can use in 45man MTT?
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
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      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 234
      I am busy playing on ipoker at the moment, away from my beloved 45-mans on Pokerstars, but occasionally play the odd game.

      There are no tricks as such to playing them at the microstakes. Just play really tight, ABC poker, aggressive early levels, and then attempt to steal blinds near FT bubble, or make re-steals against blind stealers near FT bubble if you are short in chips. Aim to have around 6,000 chips for final table. Play these games to win and not place!!! This is important if you want a good roi. Don't settle for min cashing, play to win, or come in the top 3 places at least.

      Read Adam's blog from the beginning it contains all sorts of information from experienced players. You are already beating the 0.25 games, and $1.50 SNGs, so I think you will come good at the $1 games.

      A good tip is to colour code the fish, the tight aggressive and multi-tabling regs. That way, you will have a good idea how to play against these types whom you will play against many times in the weeks and months ahead.
    • Asaban
      Asaban
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      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,241
      I agree with arthurbentley's tips mostly.

      I wouldn't agree in playing for the win though. ICM is extremely important in these tournaments. Playing for the win doesn't go well with the idea of ICM. You should always play max$EV and therefore follow ICM restrictions. Playing for the win will loose you money in the long run.

      The ROI is not of much importance btw. Most important is you hourly. Still, I doubt that playing according to ICM will hurt your ROI.

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 234
      I play to win these but I am not suicidal in them. :D For example, if the money bubble has burst and I am in 7th place holding Ace King with 15bbs or less, the money is going all in. If I am holding a semi-premium hand on the FT bubble with a small stack of 3,000, it's going all in. I don't want to somehow manage to make the final table with just 2,000 chips and then finally blind out in 8th place. I'd sooner double up and reach the final table with 6,000 chips or bust out and re-load anther game. One or the other. I do have a low itm compared to most, at these micro games, roughly 21%, but my roi is reasonable, something like 35% after 2,000 played. To be honest, I don't bother with ICM calculations. I simply reason to myself that if I win more than my fair share, rather than settling for min-cashing, I will have a better roi overall. Maybe that is a leak in my game. I don't know? But these games are the 0.25, and all-in shoves with strong hands often get called by weak aces.
    • Asaban
      Asaban
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      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,241
      It's definitely a leak. It might not cost you as much in the micro stakes, but will be quite devastating in higher stakes if you don't work at it. ICM is one of the most important theories in tournaments. The less participants it has the more important it gets.

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • Acespeci
      Acespeci
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2012 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by arthurbentley
      There are no tricks as such to playing them at the microstakes. Just play really tight, ABC poker, aggressive early levels, and then attempt to steal blinds near FT bubble, or make re-steals against blind stealers near FT bubble if you are short in chips. Aim to have around 6,000 chips for final table. Play these games to win and not place!!! This is important if you want a good roi. Don't settle for min cashing, play to win, or come in the top 3 places at least.

      Read Adam's blog from the beginning it contains all sorts of information from experienced players. You are already beating the 0.25 games, and $1.50 SNGs, so I think you will come good at the $1 games.

      A good tip is to colour code the fish, the tight aggressive and multi-tabling regs. That way, you will have a good idea how to play against these types whom you will play against many times in the weeks and months ahead.
      I will take your advice

      If I have a decent stack at the final table (close to average) I always make top 3. Plus my heads up play is excellent with any stack.

      I am taking shots at the $0.50 turbo while playing $0.25. It is a better transition that way until I feel comfortable to 6 table the $.50 cents (45man MTT)
    • Acespeci
      Acespeci
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      Joined: 19.04.2012 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by Asaban
      My recommendation would be to play the .25 45men MTSNG's until you have a bankroll of 100$+. Then move up to the .50 turbo's and try to get used to the new structure.

      In the long run you will have to focus on turbo's anyways, since they are a lot more efficient and there isn't much traffic in non-turbo mtsng's on higher limits anyways.


      Asaban
      I will follow your recommendation. I wont skip $0.50 (45man MTT). I hope hope it goes well and I move up to the $1 MTT soon
    • Acespeci
      Acespeci
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      Joined: 19.04.2012 Posts: 340
      Asaban

      Big Blinds 150/300 with 16 players left
      Hero: 4800 chips (BB)
      SB: 5200 chips

      SB try to steal Hero in the BB with 660 chips
      Hero has AQo

      Should hero go all-in or re-raise mid?


      In this situation I called hoping to see a Ace or Queen on the flop then villain steal the pot with a 1/2 pot size bet on a dry board and I fold.

      I was conserving chips for the final table (I wasnt trying to be greedy) and it was the fishy micro limit.
    • TinoLaan
      TinoLaan
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      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,411
      Super standard spot for a shove here really.

      Assuming you're talking about a 45 man here, you're still relatively far away from the money. There's no point in trying to preserve chips here. There's a great spot to double up or scoop a decent pot here if SB folds to your 3bet.

      I think with these stack sizes calling is probably the worst option (aside of folding).

      I don't see why you would call because the limit is 'fishy'. That's a great reason to get it in here, because people are capable of calling with tons of junk, especially blind vs blind.

      Just my opinion on that particular scenario. :)
    • Acespeci
      Acespeci
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      Joined: 19.04.2012 Posts: 340
      What would be your range in this spot to resteal all-in with an average stack in a 45man MTT with 16 players left?

      4800 stack
      150/300BB
    • arthurbentley
      arthurbentley
      Silver
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 234
      Originally posted by Acespeci
      Asaban

      Big Blinds 150/300 with 16 players left
      Hero: 4800 chips (BB)
      SB: 5200 chips

      SB try to steal Hero in the BB with 660 chips
      Hero has AQo

      Should hero go all-in or re-raise mid?


      In this situation I called hoping to see a Ace or Queen on the flop then villain steal the pot with a 1/2 pot size bet on a dry board and I fold.

      I was conserving chips for the final table (I wasnt trying to be greedy) and it was the fishy micro limit.
      In that spot, I am 3-betting him to 2,000 chips. If he re-pops all-in, I am snap calling.

      You say he raised your big blind 2.3 times? All the regs/multi tablers steal blinds this way near the FT bubble. They raise it something like 2.25 times-ish. Never 3 times, or even 2.5. But 2.1, 2.2, 2.3. It is their way of being cost-effective with their chips when blind stealing in case they get 3-betted and have to fold. Nine times out of ten, when they raise 2.2 times they are blind stealing and will fold to a 3-bet. Occasionally, some sneaky so-and-so will do this with pocket Aces. :D But hey, you can't win them all!
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