[NL20-NL50] KK oop in 3bet pot Qxx

    • legand73
      legand73
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2010 Posts: 4,135
      IPoker, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      MP: $20 (100 bb)
      CO: $26.83 (134.1 bb)
      BTN: $22.88 (114.4 bb)
      Hero (SB): $20 (100 bb)
      BB: $20 (100 bb)
      UTG: $8.27 (41.3 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with K K
      UTG folds, MP raises to $0.60, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.80, BB folds, MP calls $1.20

      Flop: ($3.80) 2 Q 7 (2 players)
      Hero bets $1.40, MP raises to $3, Hero calls $1.60

      Turn: ($9.80) 6 (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

      River: ($16.80) 4 (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP bets $11.70 and is all-in, Hero calls $11.70 and is all-in

      Results:
      $40.20 pot ($2.01 rake)
      Final Board: 2 Q 7 6 4
      MP showed Q A and lost (-$20 net)
      Hero mucked K K and won $38.19 ($18.19 net)


      This guy had like 50% fold to 3bet after 100 hands and wasn't that aggressive postflop so far. I'm not sure what the line he took means. It seems quite polarized to me or a very narrow value range. Is there anything else that villain could be doing this with other than sets? To me it's either sets or air.

      can i c/c this flop?
  • 7 replies
    • cutegoldfish
      cutegoldfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.11.2009 Posts: 4,335
      on this flop i think he could do it with top pairs, sets, flush draws possibly, with 100 hands it may not be enough to judge what he has.

      flop - ill probably call it, I'm not folding an overpair in a 3betpot, at least not in 95% of all situations.

      turn - i think its time to get it in here against his draws and pairs it got worse, i could think of a donk or a check/raise here, do you think hes betting the turn? with the small raise im guessing probably not so ill donk myself here and river for value

      cgf
    • legand73
      legand73
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2010 Posts: 4,135
      Oh i suppose flush draws too i never thought about that. I do block some of the FDs with the King spade though so there can't be that many FDs.

      How big should i bet the turn if i'm gonna donk?

      can i check/call the flop ?
    • pokerferrer
      pokerferrer
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.03.2008 Posts: 6,347
      What a lol. What are you talking about? Call flop, donk turn - it is the biggest lol I have ever heard in 3bet pot. How you propose to balance it? For us it is just 3bet-call on the flop. Most balanced line which doesn't mean we have nuts here. Qx anyway will pay. And I don't want to give him freecards because I'm oop.
    • legand73
      legand73
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2010 Posts: 4,135
      why is it such a lol? He might bet out with some TT, JJ type hands or maybe even 99 if he's that way inclined. These hands would be more incilned to stay in the hand if we c/c.Initially i wasn't worrying about balancing because we are on micro stakes and I don't see the same guys too often. Basically my question is how much better is it to cbet flop than c/c, and could c/c still be +EV.

      If i c/c flop, I would consider c/c turn then donk river.

      I don't think giving away free cards is too much of a concern considering we have the redraw with second nut FD so i personally don't think it's too bad a question.
    • cutegoldfish
      cutegoldfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.11.2009 Posts: 4,335
      whats his stats like? how wide is his range pre flop? and how aggressive is he on the flop and turns?

      there could be a situation where i check/call all streets, because he simply does not have much. i do that against someone with super wide opening ranges and in this case 50% fold to 3bet, i want him to have at least 20%+ calling range on this flop, which leaves him with nothing much he can call 3 streets with except Qx which he isnt going to have, then it makes sense to use our hand as a bluffcatcher for max value against him if hes super aggressive and keeps betting when we check.

      if we plan to c/c flop as a bluff catch to get value from his bluff range, then im c/c all streets, not donking river because the plan is to get value from his bluffing range which we expect to be large. if we are donking at any time for value, then i prefer betting the flop ourselves since hes probably calling the flop CB with the same hand thats calling the donk on the river, which is some sort of made hand.

      checking to get value from TT JJ type hands is a bad idea, thats a really small part of his range so i wouldnt bet on it happening, thats like 0.9% of his total range, add more pairs and you still dont go higher than 2-3%, i expect his full range to be something like 10%, and this is going to happen less than 20% of the time when we check and he bets with a weaker hand.

      if we donk on the turn ill make it something that i can jam the river with, something like 5 so we have a mid sized pot bet on the river and he would possibly call with Qx or a worse hand.
    • legand73
      legand73
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2010 Posts: 4,135
      if we donk on the turn ill make it something that i can jam the river with, something like 5 so we have a mid sized pot bet on the river and he would possibly call with Qx or a worse hand.


      Why would we donk turn? I don't really understand c/c flop then donk turn?

      if we plan to c/c flop as a bluff catch to get value from his bluff range, then im c/c all streets, not donking river because the plan is to get value from his bluffing range which we expect to be large. if we are donking at any time for value, then i prefer betting the flop ourselves since hes probably calling the flop CB with the same hand thats calling the donk on the river, which is some sort of made hand.


      I see what you mean about how similar his calling range is on flop and river. I imagine that it would probably be better to donk the flop because if we include draws in this range than his calling range would naturally be bigger on the flop.


      there could be a situation where i check/call all streets, because he simply does not have much. i do that against someone with super wide opening ranges and in this case 50% fold to 3bet, i want him to have at least 20%+ calling range on this flop,


      just wondering where the 20% came from
    • GingerKid
      GingerKid
      Black
      Joined: 05.08.2007 Posts: 5,530
      Originally posted by legand73
      why is it such a lol? He might bet out with some TT, JJ type hands or maybe even 99 if he's that way inclined. These hands would be more incilned to stay in the hand if we c/c.Initially i wasn't worrying about balancing because we are on micro stakes and I don't see the same guys too often. Basically my question is how much better is it to cbet flop than c/c, and could c/c still be +EV.

      If i c/c flop, I would consider c/c turn then donk river.

      I don't think giving away free cards is too much of a concern considering we have the redraw with second nut FD so i personally don't think it's too bad a question.
      I don't really see the reason of c/c flop, and playing passive unless you know he is really spewy when you check to him. The board on flop is one of the best for you, because he can pay you off with AQ, KQ, QJs, fd, and 2 streets with JJ, TT which would check behind for pot controling. The best is that he rarely has the set here. QQ 4bets, 77, 22 mostly fold preflop.

      I think that the main problem in this hand is that you cbet so small (< 1/2 pot) which induces a lot of bluffs even with pure air, and then it makes your play hard oop. So when you bluff induce this way, I think we should just call down, because Qx goes until all in, draws probably even when miss, air also. When we raise any street or donk, air can't call anymore which is in this case significant part of his raise range.