Construction of calling range BB vs BTN

    • Resilence
      Resilence
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      Joined: 10.03.2012 Posts: 934
      Hi, anyone who wants to help out.
      First of was a bit unsure where to post this, but feel it is something I need some help with.

      I'm trying to construct a range for my self, for calling and playing post flop vs BTN open raise.
      I have discussed my 3betting range against BTN, and we agreed on it being very tight to begin with and slowly adapting in a bigger 3bet range.

      But I have trouble figuring out a range to call with, I think I do tend to 3bet a bit to often in this spot, and rarely want to call and play OOP, but it is something I have to learn.

      I still feel I'm a beginner, but I have to get over this spot where I'm not really working enough on my game to progress, hopefully this is the start of a new beginning in my poker carrier ;)

      So far I've come up with this range:

      TT-44,AJs-A8s,KJs-K9s,K5s-K2s,Q9s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,54s,AJo-A9o,KTo+,QTo+,J9o+,T9o

      It seems this is what I feel comfortable playing, however I feel maybe it is maybe to loose?

      But then again it might be to tight given BTN is very loose usually in their opening range.
      I might mention that I play NL5 and mostly lean towards playing zoom, which might push me towards and even tighter calling range?

      I know there is A LOT of "depends" out there, but perhaps someone could help me out here? :)

      I also need to work on my BTN vs CO but that is another chapter for now ;)

      Thanks for any input and advices :heart:
  • 13 replies
    • JCSeerup
      JCSeerup
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      Joined: 14.12.2010 Posts: 1,039
      I don't really have much of a calling range vs BTN, I'd much rather 3b a pretty wide range, since BTN is opening wide, I haven't done the math, but I think we can get away with 3b 20% considering how bad people play position at this level.
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
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      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Hi Resilence!

      First of all it doesn't make sense to only have a 3B range. There is no valid reasoning for this. So we are gonna have to build a calling and a 3B range.

      The 1st thing we need to know to build up our range is how wide BU opens and how much (i.e 2x, 3x...)

      From there we can work it out.
    • metza
      metza
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      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Once you realize the very standard lines people take from the btn, it is pretty easy to play the BB imo.

      Loose 3betting works well against many opponents. Also many will just raise, cbet then give up. So its very easy to call pre, check/call, check/check turn (even donk the turn sometimes) and take a stab on most rivers, same with check/raising often as a bluff.

      It is good to mix it up with 3bets and cold calls to just make things hell for your opponents to steal your blinds till eventually they tighten up a lot.
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
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      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      vs unknown, I think its ok to have zero calling range
    • z1pz0r
      z1pz0r
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      Joined: 12.08.2009 Posts: 981
      Don't listen to that having no calling range bullshit. You definately need a calling range and having no calling range even against unknown is ridicilous because EV of many hands is higher in calling than in 3betting.
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
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      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Originally posted by z1pz0r
      Don't listen to that having no calling range bullshit. You definately need a calling range and having no calling range even against unknown is ridicilous because EV of many hands is higher in calling than in 3betting.
      Even KQo only ~50% equity against 60% open raise. And we are OOP. So what kind of hands you would call from SB/BB vs unknown BU?
    • metza
      metza
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      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by patszerdonk
      Originally posted by z1pz0r
      Don't listen to that having no calling range bullshit. You definately need a calling range and having no calling range even against unknown is ridicilous because EV of many hands is higher in calling than in 3betting.
      Even KQo only ~50% equity against 60% open raise. And we are OOP. So what kind of hands you would call from SB/BB vs unknown BU?
      Firstly it is closer to 60% equity than 50%.

      But anyway its not about that. There are other things that matter than equity.

      Think about how rarely a 60% open raise has a hand that they can feel comfortable going to showdown with. If you put pressure on them you can win a lot of pots vs their weak hands with decent equity but minimal showdown value. Knowing which cards to barrel will boost your profit.

      If you have an opponent who is mindlessly raising 60%, cbetting close to 100% you can 3bet them loose and win 2-3bb, or you can cold call, then checkraise them loosely and win 5-7bb. Both have similar success % imo and much higher success % when you mix the two (because you aren't doing either as often, and it looks like you're less out of line)

      If you only fold or 3bet, unless you 3bet more than 25% in this spot (gl finding opponent who doesn't adjust to this), then opponent still shows profit 3x ing your blinds, even if they fold to 100% of your 3bets (which they certainly wont need to since your range will be so wide).

      I see myself losing way more from the blinds without a cold calling range.

      As for what kind of hands I would cold call, stuff like weaker suited broadways (QJs), with good playability postflop but where 3betting largely isolates me vs stronger hands. Same with lower pockets, mid suited connectors and 1gappers.
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
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      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Originally posted by patszerdonk
      Originally posted by z1pz0r
      Don't listen to that having no calling range bullshit. You definately need a calling range and having no calling range even against unknown is ridicilous because EV of many hands is higher in calling than in 3betting.
      Even KQo only ~50% equity against 60% open raise. And we are OOP. So what kind of hands you would call from SB/BB vs unknown BU?
      What are your odds to call a BU open from BB?
      So yeah no need to have 50% equity vs his range to call. Now it is not as simple as odds to call as we will need to realize our equity. In other words: it is not as simple as odds to call since we play OOP and BU will have an advantage playing post flop. But still...

      SB vs BU and BB vs BU will be a lot different as when we are in SB there is still BB to act (that can squeeze). So yeah SB vs BU our calling range should be a lot tighter (also because the odds are less good) and our 3B range will be wider.

      Again, and it is very important to design a range you need to know:
      Originally posted by Dublimax
      The 1st thing we need to know to build up our range is how wide BU opens and how much (i.e 2x, 3x...)
    • Resilence
      Resilence
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      Joined: 10.03.2012 Posts: 934
      Quite interesting with all this discussion, I didn't really think anyone would even notice my post, but seems people woke up after the weekend :)

      Ty for all your words really appreciated, gave me stuff to think about, actually my brain is almost exploding atm, with all this info/discussion ;)

      As for how wide BU opens I guess it is one of the "depends" which is quite hard to answer, I guess I was looking for a standard line which is properly way to hard to define.
      My biggest problem is I think is figuring out who I have the biggest problems with...
      The LAG, TAG, reg, rec, fish...
      I assume that most players have a tendency to c-bet way to many flops, I do/did at least, and I think I agree with metza, as for people who c-bet almost 100% of their range, that it is better to call them and take down the pot on the flop f.ex. I think this will happen a lot, where they have to give up to aggression, but poorly bluffing in this spot all the time is also a mistake...

      Anyway, Dublimax you say I need a 3bet and a calling range, which I understand, I properly should have noted down my 3bet range in the thread as well, however it is really tight, and rather exploitative, anyway this range, is what my coach said I should get the hang on.
      I know it also depends on who is in the BTN, I am capable of adapting, but think it is something I do to much playing only NL5 (leveling my self)

      This is the 3bet range I should play: (BB vs BTN)

      JJ+, AQs+, A5s-A2s, AQo+

      It is a lot tighter than what I was used to, but I think I also need to be a bit more disciplined, so I don't get into to many ugly spots. + it also has bluffs which I was not used to be doing.


      So lets say BTN steals with this range:

      22+,A2s+,K7s+,Q7s+,J7s+,T9s,97s+,87s,76s,65s,54s,A2o+,K8o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T9o,97o+,87o,76o,65o,54o...

      Thats about 44%
      This might be to wide for most people?

      Is my call range then good/bad or do I need to understand something else? :f_confused:
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
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      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      hey,

      One thing that would be good is to know whether we are defending vs a 3x open or a 2x.

      We now have a 45% BU open which is about wide enough (even though the range is a bit weirdly distributed)

      Couple of points for you to think about :

      #1 Seems like you forgot KQs in your calling range.

      #2 Do the maths on how much BU needs the blinds to fold to be able to open any 2.

      #3 Why do you defend K2s-K5s and not K6s-K8s and why do you defend 64s and not A7s? i.e how did you pick up the hands you would continue with?
    • JCSeerup
      JCSeerup
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      Joined: 14.12.2010 Posts: 1,039
      Originally posted by Resilence
      Quite interesting with all this discussion, I didn't really think anyone would even notice my post, but seems people woke up after the weekend :)

      Ty for all your words really appreciated, gave me stuff to think about, actually my brain is almost exploding atm, with all this info/discussion ;)

      As for how wide BU opens I guess it is one of the "depends" which is quite hard to answer, I guess I was looking for a standard line which is properly way to hard to define.
      My biggest problem is I think is figuring out who I have the biggest problems with...
      The LAG, TAG, reg, rec, fish...
      I assume that most players have a tendency to c-bet way to many flops, I do/did at least, and I think I agree with metza, as for people who c-bet almost 100% of their range, that it is better to call them and take down the pot on the flop f.ex. I think this will happen a lot, where they have to give up to aggression, but poorly bluffing in this spot all the time is also a mistake...

      Anyway, Dublimax you say I need a 3bet and a calling range, which I understand, I properly should have noted down my 3bet range in the thread as well, however it is really tight, and rather exploitative, anyway this range, is what my coach said I should get the hang on.
      I know it also depends on who is in the BTN, I am capable of adapting, but think it is something I do to much playing only NL5 (leveling my self)

      This is the 3bet range I should play: (BB vs BTN)

      JJ+, AQs+, A5s-A2s, AQo+

      It is a lot tighter than what I was used to, but I think I also need to be a bit more disciplined, so I don't get into to many ugly spots. + it also has bluffs which I was not used to be doing.


      So lets say BTN steals with this range:

      22+,A2s+,K7s+,Q7s+,J7s+,T9s,97s+,87s,76s,65s,54s,A2o+,K8o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T9o,97o+,87o,76o,65o,54o...

      Thats about 44%
      This might be to wide for most people?

      Is my call range then good/bad or do I need to understand something else? :f_confused:
      I do not agree with that 3b range at all, for one don't use a non-linear range vs. btn, just bet linear! If you only 3b a 5% range you need to bet 4x otherwise he can call profitable with a lot of hands. And people at 5NL doesn't defend nearly enough vs 3b. I would suggest closer to 20% 3b range in BB vs. BTN, thats working for me at 5NL.

      Just a quick suggestion to a calling range would be something like this:
      55-22, A5s-A3s, K8s-K7s, J9s, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, A7o-A5o, K9o-K8o
    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
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      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Originally posted by JCSeerup
      I do not agree with that 3b range at all, for one don't use a non-linear range vs. btn, just bet linear! If you only 3b a 5% range you need to bet 4x otherwise he can call profitable with a lot of hands. And people at 5NL doesn't defend nearly enough vs 3b. I would suggest closer to 20% 3b range in BB vs. BTN, thats working for me at 5NL.

      Just a quick suggestion to a calling range would be something like this:
      55-22, A5s-A3s, K8s-K7s, J9s, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, A7o-A5o, K9o-K8o
      We are trying to build up basic solid ranges to defend BB vs BU and understand why.

      I would def not advocate your strategy but if it works for you then keep doing it. However this is not what OP is after.
    • JCSeerup
      JCSeerup
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      Joined: 14.12.2010 Posts: 1,039
      Originally posted by Dublimax
      Originally posted by JCSeerup
      I do not agree with that 3b range at all, for one don't use a non-linear range vs. btn, just bet linear! If you only 3b a 5% range you need to bet 4x otherwise he can call profitable with a lot of hands. And people at 5NL doesn't defend nearly enough vs 3b. I would suggest closer to 20% 3b range in BB vs. BTN, thats working for me at 5NL.

      Just a quick suggestion to a calling range would be something like this:
      55-22, A5s-A3s, K8s-K7s, J9s, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, A7o-A5o, K9o-K8o
      We are trying to build up basic solid ranges to defend BB vs BU and understand why.

      I would def not advocate your strategy but if it works for you then keep doing it. However this is not what OP is after.
      I that case there are not much to discuss in the range OP have suggested are there? Just add KQs, A7s-A6s, 33-22 and remove K5s-K2s and maybe 64s

      It's a pretty solid range since we don't have much of a 3b range then I guess we can call more.

      I personally just don't like to have that wide a calling range since we can re-steal so often. But thats an other discussion.