[NL2-NL10] beginners quiz nonsense

    • ChubbyTrucker
      ChubbyTrucker
      Global
      Joined: 25.04.2013 Posts: 47
      Just took the test and spotted some more nonsensical evaluations

      Q5 Kk bets and is called by one and raised by another on a 2,3 T board and we're told to fold.
      Q10 with AJ diamonds with a board of two diamonds we're told to try and force hands like KK out because we're in with a flip chance! If KK was called/raised by 45suited and AT in the first example (both reasonable given their position in the hand) you just folded for nothing when you were winning in the first and bluffed with air against potentially solid made hands when youre only going to win about 33% of the time in the other?

      Could I have some advice that might actually make some money please? X(
  • 32 replies
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      In order for me to comment, your hands are missing vital information that must be provided in order to evaluate the profitability of a situation.

      For example -

      - effective stacks
      - hero's position
      - villain's position
      - preflop action
      - exact flop texture
      - opponent type, reads, history, stats

      Also, please keep in mind that decisions should be based on opponents range, not our absolute hand strength.
    • ChubbyTrucker
      ChubbyTrucker
      Global
      Joined: 25.04.2013 Posts: 47
      Sorry but i thought by putting 'beginners quiz' in the title of this thread someone who answered would have been clever enough to work out from my questions which hands i was refering to......... but incase they werent i marked them Q5 and Q10?
      So I'll try again..........beginners section, module 1 quiz hands for Q8 and Q10 (that someone in your office wrote!)
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      I am a freelancer and had no part in writing the beginners quiz.

      This is the hand evaluation board. If you would like a hand evaluated please post it here.

      If instead you would like to post feedback regarding the beginners quiz, please repost to the appropriate board. I.e beginners questions or feedback board.
    • ChubbyTrucker
      ChubbyTrucker
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      Joined: 25.04.2013 Posts: 47
      I posted here because the link at the end of the quiz said discuss it here.........something else on this site that doesnt work properly X(
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      I'm not actually sure whether you are really after any legitimate feedback or whether you just want to flame about how terrible you think the quiz is - in which case you'd be better posting on the feedback board.

      If you do genuinely want feedback on a certain hand then I'm sure you will have no problem posting the hand here including stack-sizes + positions and all other relevant info.
    • ChubbyTrucker
      ChubbyTrucker
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      Joined: 25.04.2013 Posts: 47
      I always flame off when people write missleading rubbish and it costs others their money. All info in my question is as it appears in my question. The stack sizes for all were set at 10 dollars each and the other info is as it appears in the quiz. If thats not enough for an expert to explain why it seems rubbish to a novice trying to understand it all pdrhaps its you who should flame off at your employer and ask them to write questions that make more sense?
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Ok, great, $10 stacks. I'll assume that is 100bb effective stacks.

      Now we are just missing the positions of hero + opponents and the preflop action. SH, FR?

      Why don't you just copy and paste the hand here and explain what the problem you have with it is?
    • ChubbyTrucker
      ChubbyTrucker
      Global
      Joined: 25.04.2013 Posts: 47
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/quiz/weekly/1553/

      This is the link to the quiz and is the best I can do as im on my phone and limited to what I can copy. Examine Q5 and Q10 and tell me why I drop kings to what are probably bluff raise and an under pair callingstation and why I would want to bluff a hand as strong as KK with a hand thats only good one time in three?
    • sausage646
      sausage646
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.03.2010 Posts: 567
      Originally posted by ChubbyTrucker
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/quiz/weekly/1553/

      This is the link to the quiz and is the best I can do as im on my phone and limited to what I can copy. Examine Q5 and Q10 and tell me why I drop kings to what are probably bluff raise and an under pair callingstation and why I would want to bluff a hand as strong as KK with a hand thats only good one time in three?
      Question 5.

      Easy fold on 23Tr when BU raises.

      1. No info that indicates he could be some kind of a maniac or something.
      2. His range is mostly sets, sometimes 23s
      3. He would most likely just call with his draws (position, no need for him to semi bluff since your range is strong cbetting such a dry board in 2 players op)
      -- Main reason why you fold -> no stats / no reads

      Question 10

      I don't know why but it shows that hero has just a Jd probably some kind of a glitch so no comment atm on that.

      Hope that helped :) ?

      Btw. some time ago I did find few mistakes in Big stack strategy too considering how to play in certain spots, best way to let them know is just to contact the costumer service insert links etc. and they usually deals with it or explains why so in a matter of hours.
    • ChubbyTrucker
      ChubbyTrucker
      Global
      Joined: 25.04.2013 Posts: 47
      Thanks for the reply but thats opened up questions.....

      We raise for value with KK and get two callers and when we bet out and get raised on a donk board we fold? Assuming we ever hit a good board what would that look like and when would we ever know we weren't folding to a stone bluff or AT?

      If youre not going to the river for the remaing stack here then when especially when the other question gives advice to lump chasing a flush and an over card against a hand youre still behind to and wont hit more than once in three?

      Stupid if you ask me but maybe thats why I cant win anything
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      KK - It's not really a case of your absolute hand strength which is good with KK on a dry board. It's to do with your opponents range. There are many spots at lower limits where you should be folding an overpair to a flop-raise. In a lot of ways dry boards are worse because opponent will rarely have any semi-bluffing range - so you end up against made hands a lot, mainly sets.

      As for A:dJ - The goal is not to get opponent to fold KK. It's saying that in a really bad situation where opponents ends up being strong, you still have a ton of equity. So assuming villain is not that strong most of the time your fold-equity + pot-equity should make check-raising profitable.

      All of these spots are villain dependent. The best play would change depending on a number of factors. This is the limitation of quizzes. The advice given is nowhere near as bad as you think it is however imo.
    • ChubbyTrucker
      ChubbyTrucker
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      Joined: 25.04.2013 Posts: 47
      IMHO that advice is going to see the following:

      1.......Loads of KK hands hitting the muck to a bluff and under pairs

      2........Loads of novices chasing flush draws and going broke

      And all because a quiz that was designed to help did nothing of the sort!

      :-(
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Originally posted by ChubbyTrucker
      IMHO that advice is going to see the following:

      1.......Loads of KK hands hitting the muck to a bluff and under pairs

      Thanks for you opinion.

      In practice most players do not bluff-raise flops light at lower limits. If you always stack off with over-pairs to flop raises you will lose a lot of money at the lower limits. Yes, some of the time you will fold to a bluff, but most of the time villain is not bluffing.


      Originally posted by ChubbyTrucker
      2........Loads of novices chasing flush draws and going broke

      And all because a quiz that was designed to help did nothing of the sort!
      The play is not about "chasing" flush-draws. Chasing implies passively calling down with a draw. In this case equity is not the only relevant factor since we also have fold-equity.


      Not sure what is with the attitude, but I'm willing to bet you don't know as much as you think you do. Gl.
    • ChubbyTrucker
      ChubbyTrucker
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      Joined: 25.04.2013 Posts: 47
      Quite prepared to admit I know much less than I think and im quite prepared to learn as much as I can from anyone willing to teach......... and being the eternal optimist that I am I still hope one day to learn something that works!

      :D
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      please be more respectful with your tone - You could phrase your words more politely and we would all be extremely willing to help you.

      If you want a second opinion (third opinion), I agree with weasel and the quiz. The reality is that people don't get out of line in multi-way pots very often.

      Q5) think about it this way, if you bet into 2 other players, you already look very strong. The first caller could also have sets in his range when he calls here - He doesn't have to raise yet since the board is really dry. Yet the 2nd guy puts in a raise after both of you show significant strength. I think that is almost always a set 80%+ of the time, at least at limits below NL200.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      Q10)

      Both check/raising and bet/pushing are fine.

      Check/raising allows your opponent to bet once as a bluff before you put in a raise and force him out of the hand. Even if he does go all-in with a pair, you would have close to 40%+ equity which isn't too bad. IF he folds, you make a good amount of money. IF he stacks off with a worse flush draw, you are crushing him.

      Bet/pushing is kind of similar, just that he should fold his air more often on the Flop. This play is better vs someone who raises the Flop as a bluff a lot (really aggro opponent) or a more passive opponent (someone who doesn't bluff too often). Vs a semi-aggro opponent (someone who doesn't bluff raise much but will often bet when checked to), then c/r seems to be better.
    • ChubbyTrucker
      ChubbyTrucker
      Global
      Joined: 25.04.2013 Posts: 47
      Fair points.....but if we're putting both villains on possible sets why would either of them raise a player willing to bet his hand and risk driving both your profit margins away? Consider.........if im the villain raising and I put you you on an over pair to the board with my set of twos what do I think the caller has? If im the same villain this time with a set of tens, what do I fear enough to need to raise for.........a 1/10 chance you might hit your card? Doesn't seem logical to me

      Btw....... at the limits I play .001/.002 guys get out of line constantly in all sorts of situation so I have no reference for $10 stacks so apologies if my analysis of this situation doesn't transfere to higher beginner levels
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,295
      Ok, but the question was not -

      "did villain play this hand well?" but rather "choose the best play". Perhaps he just realised you were never folding kings.

      Please use the "advise judge" feature if you would like further replies in this thread.
    • ChubbyTrucker
      ChubbyTrucker
      Global
      Joined: 25.04.2013 Posts: 47
      Thank you for the time and advice.......... I still dont think I get the whole 'putting someone on a range' business or how it really helps at my level when i see guys playing pretty much 40%+ of the hands? I watch pro's on the tv sitting for ages (time you don't get on-line) when someone does something and the pundits talk about him playing it through, deciding on a range and it always ends one of three ways:

      1...... he decides he's ahead, calls the raise and discovers his miles off, gets lucky and wins with a worse starting hand (very common)

      2...... plays safe, makes the wrong decision and folds the best hand (the most common)

      3....... very ( VERY) rarely makes totally the right decision on either count (eric sydell and dan harrington being the best exponents)

      Your thoughts would be very welcome
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