Hold em no limit cash games, is it worth it?

    • darkpenance0
      darkpenance0
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      Joined: 02.10.2010 Posts: 156
      I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder at the moment in regards to online no limit texas hold em cash games, I just can't see any way to make money.

      When I started playing poker online back in 2007 as a Student I placed $25 into a poker site and through study and trial and error I found myself consistently beating the tables and moved up stakes from 0.01/0.02 to 0.25/0.50 so by 2009 I was making $600 a month playing short handed cash games.

      After I left Uni I became a recreational player not really having the time or desire to play for 5 hours a day. Well I recently started playing seriously again but there seems to be a massive improvement on the average skill of players, I started out at 0.10/0.25 and made a loss after 10,000 hands so I moved down stakes to 0.5/0.10 where after 5,000 hands I'm just about breaking even (I'm up $8).

      Has the world just become so apt on Poker Theory that the fish and lunatic players just dont exist anymore? Sure I see them every now and then but back in the day you could sit at a table and expect to find 50% bad players to take advantage of, now your lucky if you find 1 and they generally dont stick around to long.

      I made my money by playing super loose aggressive from late positions and super tight oop making good money when my super loose range in position caught 2 pair/flush/str8/trips and I'd get paid off with premiums. I could even float a 3better and take down pots when they tried to stand up to my raises with hands as low as Q8 off.

      Now though it seems like 70% of players are NITs which means they just sit and fold until they get a big hand then depending on the player flat call to trap or 3bet you. They dont do it that often so its not like you can take the risk of 4 betting them without a real hand so you have to fold or make a frustration call/raise and lose lots of money. Seems like the only way to make money is by hitting the nuts when someone has the second nuts. With a wide range you take alot of blinds but its not worth it for the times you get trapped or 3bet and have to fold or make a futile bluff.

      Alright so I figure if I cant beat em join em, but it gets even worse playing super tight, you end up just taking the blinds with AA and KK and taking down the occasional pre flop pot with a 3bet. Its rare you ever see a flop and when you do its inevitably with hands like AQ and AJ which just suck to play when your cbet on a flop 869 gets a caller. The only big pots Ive won playing NIT is AA vs KK and KK vs QQ or a set vs an overpair, it just doesnt happen often enough to make it worthwhile.

      I just really don't see how anyone can make money playing online cash games, the best it seems you can hope for is to break even and make money off a bonus.

      If I'm wrong tell me but I dont wanna hear all that talk of 'in the long run you'll make money if your good enough' and 10,000 hands isnt a big enough sample'. I mean come on, are you really saying that you have to play thousands and thousands of hands to turn a profit? It just isnt worth the effort.

      Sit and Go's are just as bad, everyone seems to have learned how to play them to a decent level now so again the best you can do is break even. MTT's are the only source of decent income it seems to me but you need a lot of luck to make deep runs and get on the final table.

      So I suppose I'm just wondering if Online no limit Texas Hold Em has become the victim of its own success? I really fail to see how it can be profitable anymore.
  • 31 replies
    • yougotfelted51
      yougotfelted51
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      Joined: 04.02.2010 Posts: 1,276
      online poker has gotten much harder since 2007 obviously, but there are still a ton of fish on every site.

      if you are willing to put in a solid amount of effort then you will be able to succeed, as most people just aren't willing to do so.

      so to answer your question, yes, online poker is still worth it. just look around at all the blogs on pokerstrategy to see players working hard and doing well :s_biggrin:
    • darkpenance0
      darkpenance0
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      Joined: 02.10.2010 Posts: 156
      I really don't see all these tons of fish. I see maybe 1 fish on a table if that, I hardly see any old school loose passive players anymore.

      You get the occasional maniac but they dont tend to last very long and you need a hand to call them with, its no good calling a shove with K8
    • muel294
      muel294
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      Joined: 06.06.2009 Posts: 1,207
      There's no money HU either, everyone's solid....
    • zumpar
      zumpar
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      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by muel294
      There's no money HU either, everyone's solid....
      +1

      everyone solid even in live CG's
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
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      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      RIP online pokers :f_cry:


      games are still beatable, it just might be the case that what was 2007's nl100 is today's nl25 or something like that.
    • zumpar
      zumpar
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      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      saw some nl400 vids from 2008, imo = to 25, max 50 today
    • darkpenance0
      darkpenance0
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      Joined: 02.10.2010 Posts: 156
      Alright so what is a good return from 10,000 hands playing 0.5/0.10? If from 5000 I'm + $8 then the projection would be +$16. What should I be looking to have?

      Also I do wonder if William Hill is just a tougher poker site, I was attracted because of the bonus. Maybe there are softer games?
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
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      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      i believe that nl10 can still be beaten at over at least 10BB/100 at any site, ofc though it all depends on your relative skill.

      5BB/100 is definitely something reasonable to aim for.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      iPoker is known for being the most nitty network out there. And having one fish at the table is standard these days.
    • metza
      metza
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      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Even 100/200 play money is solid as shit, everyone playing GTO unexploitable with perfectly balanced ranges.

      Welcome to the rotting corpse of Online Poker.
    • spreeboy
      spreeboy
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      Joined: 06.09.2010 Posts: 223
      Originally posted by metza
      Even 100/200 play money is solid as shit, everyone playing GTO unexploitable with perfectly balanced ranges.

      Welcome to the rotting corpse of Online Poker.
      hahaha
    • zumpar
      zumpar
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      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by metza
      Even 100/200 play money is solid as shit, everyone playing GTO unexploitable with perfectly balanced ranges.

      Welcome to the rotting corpse of Online Poker.

      :D ::D D:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
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      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,921
      Let's be nice now guys :)
    • darkpenance0
      darkpenance0
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      Joined: 02.10.2010 Posts: 156
      5BB/100 is definitely something reasonable to aim for.
      So whats that +$50 from 10,000 hands? Is it really worth the effort? Surely playing MTTs will yield better profits?

      The way it seems to me is that the only way to ever make money playing online poker is by playing MTTs and just hope you get lucky.

      How about PLO instead of Hold Em? How tough are those games?

      (Also I suppose this was always going to happen, sites like this have been set up to give players the knowledge to beat the tables. Strategy is so easily found online it really doesnt take much effort now to learn good poker. The days are gone when you bought a copy of 'Harrington on Hold Em' and could expect to have an edge)
    • TinoLaan
      TinoLaan
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      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,411
      So whats that +$50 from 10,000 hands? Is it really worth the effort? Surely playing MTTs will yield better profits?
      Well let's be honest here; are you really playing NL10 for the money? I'd say one should be playing NL10 while still learning the game in order to move up to the stakes where you can make a decent profit/living if you are a winning player at that limit.

      Sure you can ship a tournament and get a 500BI payday or whatever, but there's a lot of variance in tournaments. That said, MTTs are my favorite form of poker, and they almost certainly have the most fish.

      Perhaps in the long run MTTs are more profitable, I don't know. But you can't say cash games aren't worth the effort just because you don't make a lot of money on NL10. If you're serious about poker and put in a lot of time and effort into your game, any game is beatable because, as someone already stated above, most people do not put enough effort into their game.
    • darkpenance0
      darkpenance0
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      Joined: 02.10.2010 Posts: 156
      I agree with you, NL10 is not about making money but I would hope to make more than $50 playing 10,000 hands.

      When I was a regular It only took me about 2 weeks to get the BR from NL10 to play NL25 which is what I want to achieve. The way the game is now I can't see that happening, not enough bad players to take advantage of.

      Like I said though it may just be that I'm playing a Nitty poker room.

      I could deposit a few hundred into a site and play higher stakes right off the bat but I want to make sure I can beat the lower stakes before moving up. Problem I have now though is I have like $75 on William Hill and its not worth withdrawing unless I have $100 so I want to find a quick way to get to $100 so I can withdraw and redopsit on a looser site like 888.

      I do also wonder if PLO is less well known and so easier to beat.

      If someone has say a Pokerstars/Full Tilt account and a William Hill account I'd trade you my WH money for some PS/FT money. :D
    • Javito987
      Javito987
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      Joined: 23.02.2011 Posts: 2,258
      Originally posted by darkpenance0
      5BB/100 is definitely something reasonable to aim for.
      So whats that +$50 from 10,000 hands? Is it really worth the effort? Surely playing MTTs will yield better profits?

      The way it seems to me is that the only way to ever make money playing online poker is by playing MTTs and just hope you get lucky.

      How about PLO instead of Hold Em? How tough are those games?

      (Also I suppose this was always going to happen, sites like this have been set up to give players the knowledge to beat the tables. Strategy is so easily found online it really doesnt take much effort now to learn good poker. The days are gone when you bought a copy of 'Harrington on Hold Em' and could expect to have an edge)
      PLO has a very high rake, but if you study a bit I think it is beatable
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Yea PLO rake is huge. Play fast fold no limit, you can get in ~1k hands/hour 4 tabling it. The winrates will be naturally lower there tho, but hourly should be higher if you manage to adapt.

      And I absolutely think you can win 200$ in 25k hands, it's a small samle so a lot comes down how well you'll run over it.
    • metza
      metza
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      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by darkpenance0
      I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder at the moment in regards to online no limit texas hold em cash games, I just can't see any way to make money.
      Just saw what you did there :pokerface:
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