C ev or $ ev @ FT of a 180 man (hand example included)

    • ipeaceonu
      Joined: 23.06.2007 Posts: 232
      So I have been having some discussions about this and am really unsure about the correct answer (if there is an exact answer). I am from an stt background so for me any FT is always played in $ ev mode using icm. However due to the top heavy pay structure of a 180 is it correct to discard icm until 3 players left (this is when pay jumps get big) or is it correct to play in $ ev as we are now playing for $ not chips.

      Poker Stars $2.28+$0.22 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t2000/t4000 Blinds + t400 - 4 players - View hand 2219403
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      Hero (SB): t55902 M = 7.36
      BB: t39794 M = 5.24
      CO: t30946 M = 4.07
      BTN: t143358 M = 18.86

      Pre Flop: (t7600) Hero is SB with A:spade: 8:heart:
      1 fold, BTN raises to t142958 all in, 2 folds

      Final Pot: t11600
      BTN wins t11600

      Villain is 3/3 jams on BTN and 6/6 jams from SB so for arguments sake and ease of discussion we can just give him an ATC jamming range here.

      So here are some calculations using holdem resources calc


      R 143k BU 100.0%, Any two
      C 54k SB 52.6%, 22+ Kx+ Q2s+ Q5o+ J4s+ J7o+ T6s+ T8o+ 97s+ 87s

      A8o is + 2.7% or +3.31bb


      R 143k BU 100.0%, Any two
      C 54k SB 3.8%, 88+ AQs+

      A8o is -1.4%

      This hand is obv just one of many examples where playing cev and icm differ hugely hence we have to learn each one and when to employ each strategy. The post is not really about this specific hand but more for getting opinions. Of course if there is some 1bb stack ready to bust (extreme example) then we are not gonna take small Cev edges even if we are gonna disregard ICM as an FT strategy.
  • 2 replies
    • Wohmfg
      Joined: 12.11.2009 Posts: 500
      You understand why in this particular example you have to be so tight vs BU tho?

      Whenever there are pay jumps near you have to account for ICM. In this example you are very very risk averse against the big stack. You out stack the other 2 stacks so you are free to tangle with them with much less risk aversion, but to tangle with the big stack is suicide because doubling up from him doesn't even give you a chip lead and doesn't get much closer to knocking out big stack.

      You should always be looking at the stack sizes on the final table.
    • Asaban
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 9,172
      On final tables you should always play according to $EV, but adjust it if necessary, because of possible future EV that is not considered if you use ICM.

      ChipEV can only be used if there is no relevant bubble factor. That's mostly true for all hands that are not played during ITM-bubble, final table bubble and final table.