Holding the second nuts and still, U make the call

    • Flexycap
      Flexycap
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2008 Posts: 10
      It happens to everyone, For example : U are holding a king high flush on an unpaired board, the river comes with a 4 suited card and all of a sudden the guy out of position fires his whole stack against your second nuts.

      U feel miserable by seeing that last card. The pot became 3 times bigger then your stack. Lots of people will probably call because of the potsize, however there is no shame in folding.

      If there is no shame in folding, and you know u are beaten on the river by a maniac who holds the ace in his hand with -a meaningless kicker that didn't even hit the flop- u will still call, and get tilted by catching his running running cards.

      Ofcourse the donk feels like he is an alltime winner while u are banging your head against your keyboard or throwing away your mouse because of your 'misclick'.

      Even if u are a shark, don't let your ego take U down and fold, but take down the villain in the next round that probably has a ROI of -3000%.

      It was a dumb play by the villain, but it's even dumber to call when u know U are beat.

      Remember,because ofthose people, U are able to buy an Aston Martin or a golden Rolex.
  • 17 replies
    • Backcushion
      Backcushion
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 816
      Lol,Maniac fire his whole stack in and i have second nuts.


      Let me think what would i do...oh yes SNAPCALL,i'd hit the call button as fast as i can

      Ok and i'll tell you why,because MANIAC can hold anything,if you're playing against really tight guy then you can fold,but against donks and maniac,it's call imo.
    • Flexycap
      Flexycap
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2008 Posts: 10
      You just proved my point.
      And its not about instacalling, but the fact that U are 100% sure U are beaten, because of his last remaining percentage to win the hand.

      And those players will never be profitable we all know that and U will get your money back from those by skill and not by luck. We all know that :)
      As u say U can fold against a tight player but not against this maniac, doesn't stand your ego in the way? =>> Remember, U know u are beaten before U call his all in.
    • Backcushion
      Backcushion
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 816
      Originally posted by Flexycap
      You just proved my point.
      So from now on you're folding your second nuts with 3:1 pot odds against donks and maniacs(handrange 50%) who could hold anything ?


      My thoughts:
      It's no shame to call a donk and maniac push with 2nd nuts,you'll win most of times.
    • Backcushion
      Backcushion
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 816
      Originally posted by Flexycap
      You just proved my point.
      And its not about instacalling, but the fact that U are 100% sure U are beaten, because of his last remaining percentage to win the hand.

      And those players will never be profitable we all know that and U will get your money back from those by skill and not by luck. We all know that :)
      As u say U can fold against a tight player but not against this maniac, doesn't stand your ego in the way? =>> Remember, U know u are beaten before U call his all in.
      Absolutely opposite.


      How do you know he is holding Ace high flush?Without special reads i would never ever fold this against a donk,especially in a tourney.
      There's nothing here about ego,you listen too much of that poker after dark doyle brunson scene.
    • Flexycap
      Flexycap
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2008 Posts: 10
      There is no shame in folding when U know U are beaten and u cant improve your hand.

      U still dont get it huh? U made the perfect read on him and U are convinced he has that Ace, why woul you even bother to call even when the odds are there as U know U are going to lose this hand.
      That's trowing money away.

      * What doyle brunson thing? I never watch PAFD
    • Backcushion
      Backcushion
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 816
      Originally posted by Flexycap
      There is no shame in folding when U know U are beaten and u cant improve your hand.

      U still dont get it huh? U made the perfect read on him and U are convinced he has that Ace, why woul you even bother to call even when the odds are there as U know U are going to lose this hand.
      That's trowing money away.
      It's really hard to understand you,post the hand please.

      But from what i get in your story that you called down to hit the flush but then you folded if you hit your flush because you were scared that maniac(handrange 50%) has Ace high flush?
    • Flexycap
      Flexycap
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2008 Posts: 10
      hey m8

      Its not about a hand i have played recently
      It was an example.
      Doesnt matter if its regarding a flush, straight or Boat etc

      This post was ment to be a tought.
      Its about knowing you are behind but u still clicked that button, even when your mind says to fold
    • Backcushion
      Backcushion
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 816
      Originally posted by Flexycap
      hey m8

      Its not about a hand i have played recently
      It was an example.
      Doesnt matter if its regarding a flush, straight or Boat etc

      This post was ment to be a tought.
      Its about knowing you are behind but u still clicked that button, even when your mind says to fold
      Oh okay , no point to mention some maniac and others stuff.

      Well I play FL,and sometimes i have this intuition that i'm behind but I still call down,because sometimes it's impossible to know what your opponents are holding.

      This kind of folding can be done by special reads and against decent players,i wouldn't ever fold 2nd nuts against donkeys and maniacs,they have no pattern in their game,that read you took can mean nothing etc.

      By the last part i mean that sometimes you have intuition that he might hold the nuts,but you have to call imo,because most of times you'll win.
    • Sasa1234
      Sasa1234
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.05.2008 Posts: 298
      Just listen to your instinct. Most of the time you'll make good decision.
    • Flexycap
      Flexycap
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2008 Posts: 10
      Originally posted by Backcushion
      Oh okay , no point to mention some maniac and others stuff.
      I needed some color / illustration in my text to make it more clear.

      FL is imho way different then NL. They make more marginal calls in FL then in NL since U can't protect the strength of your hand. And it's tougher to play FL. btw (nice blog :) )

      But anyway, i wrote this tought because while playing at the tables I read often in the chatbox the following sentence : 'I knew U had that hand' after a big pot. So I was wondering then, if someone knows his opponent has the hand that beats him, why calling?
      U know what I mean? :)
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Hi Flexycap,

      IMO you need to play these situations by the odds. You need to think, how often you can have the better hand, and which pot odds you are getting.

      Against a maniac i'm never folding the second nuts tbh.

      Flexycap, what limits do you play? IMO on the micro-mid stakes games, most people play so bad poker, you can never say that the 2nd nutz is no good.

      @ sasa1234, imo, I dont think instinct has much to do with it.

      Best regards
      Stiev
    • Backcushion
      Backcushion
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2007 Posts: 816
      Originally posted by cannell555
      Hi Flexycap,

      IMO you need to play these situations by the odds. You need to think, how often you can have the better hand, and which pot odds you are getting.

      Against a maniac i'm never folding the second nuts tbh.

      Flexycap, what limits do you play? IMO on the micro-mid stakes games, most people play so bad poker, you can never say that the 2nd nutz is no good.

      @ sasa1234, imo, I dont think instinct has much to do with it.

      Best regards
      Stiev
      You use more IMO then I do.
    • CimkoPro
      CimkoPro
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.06.2008 Posts: 159
      if he is a maniac he will push with one pair also so i think its call because theres only one card that he must have to win you
    • Flexycap
      Flexycap
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.08.2008 Posts: 10
      Its not about this specific hand, its an example
      Its about knowing U are behind and stil call..
    • cannell555
      cannell555
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      You cant possibly ever know your behind on the micro's-mid stakes. People play so stupid at times. You need to think about the pot odds, and how often you think your ahead, then make the appriate play. I think online poker is based on odds in these situations, rather than reads.

      Stiev.
    • Hellrabbit
      Hellrabbit
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2007 Posts: 54
      Funny how everyone keeps bashing on the maniac-part of the post :p

      I do understand OP's point though. I've had this situation a few times myself actually : you flop your K or Q high flush, villain check/calls both flop and turn very hesitantly when you bet out for value and then all of a sudden that river brings the 4th suited card on the board. All of a sudden this guy instashoves and you just know you're beat but you have to call this just cause of the odds you're getting. Obviously villain turns over the winning hand every time & you just paid him off. It's hard to stomach, but .... No, it's just hard to stomach.
    • TerrorBlade
      TerrorBlade
      Black
      Joined: 16.10.2007 Posts: 1,922
      The thing is Flexycap you will be ahead at least 1/3 times with the second nuts vs every opponent, with the exception of a player with .1 AF *maybe*, which makes the call EV+ (do you know this term?)

      You never know for 100% I have players that I know are passive can come out with random river bluffs now and again which is why I don't fold getting 1/10 vs their river raise in fixed limit. The point is you don't EVER know for sure what your opponent is holding. Maybe his friend is playing for him or he accidentally hit the all in button. Maybe he has the Q high flush or worse. You can't be sure that you're behind that often, therefore the correct play is a call.

      In the same way you don't fold Kings preflop in 99% of situations, because you can never truly know they are holding AA.

      A good parallel to this is you're holding a high flush draw and you call a bet on the turn getting 1/5. By your logic you know you're behind so why don't you just fold? Because you will have the best hand on the river 1/5 of the time.