To add on or not to add on

    • MackPDaddy
      MackPDaddy
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      Joined: 24.08.2008 Posts: 41
      Hi guys
      I was playing in a $1 R&A and at the end of the first hour had about 4000 chips and the add-on appeared watching other players I notice that most were adding even the chip leader, I followed their lead and added on.
      As this was my first R&A can you tell me is it common practice to add on no matter what or should I save my $1 for the next tournament
      Thanks
      Mack
  • 16 replies
    • LuborC
      LuborC
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      Joined: 20.04.2008 Posts: 1,243
      Search the forum!

      There was a thread some time back about this. Or maybe not exactly about this but pretty much.. I think the conclusion back then was to use the add on or rebuy option because you get those chips cheaper than the ones at the beggining of a tournament (you don't have to pay the rake).

      Maybe I just don't remember it right, though. Or maybe somone has an opinion on this that was not mentioned in the older thread.. I myself really don't know I don't even play MTTs all that much..
    • Semesa
      Semesa
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      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 294
      in a rebuy/addon tournament, it is always -ev to rebuy. and almost always -ev to addon..

      normal rebuy/addon tournaments are 1500 chip start. 1500 rebuy, 2000 addon in first break.


      the first time you buy in, you buy in for the exact average amount.

      every subsequent time you rebuy, the average chips have gone up, but the amount you rebuy for doesnt. therefor your chip stack/$ ratio will not be high enough in comparison to the competition to warrant rebuying.

      edit:

      the only time i would addon is if i were at starting stack or below. anything more than that and the addon is only a fraction of my total chips and hence, not worth it.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Hi guys,

      I cant stand these tournaments, but the way I see it is your getting more chips for less money, so adding on is surely +ev. As is rebuying, you are getting the same amount of chips for less money, which says to me its +ev.

      Best reagards
      Stiev
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Originally posted by Semesa
      and almost always -ev to addon.
      wat? It is always the exact opposite of that. +EV.

      Always take addon. Aim is final table and first place, we need all chips we can get. Addon chips are cheaper than start buying chips so its even better deal.
    • Semesa
      Semesa
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      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 294
      you are all thinking of it the wrong way.

      your EV decreases as the total amount of chips increases.

      so while the first buyin will get you 1%(in the average $500 GP, usually 100 players, hence 1%) of the total amount of chips, by the break, usually there has been at least 300 rebuys, so your addon will get you approx 0.3% of the total chips.

      clearly NOT +ev

      also note: by the time you hit the break, the average chip stack is WAY more then 2000, hence your addon, which costs the same amount as a buyin, will not get you the same amount of chips as when you first started(in comparison to the rest of the competition).
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      eh... Dont take add on then but please dont suggest that to new players. Rebuy tournament player should nearly always take addon.

      You play to win, for that you need chips. Add-on offers very good deal for getting chips. Whatever Semesa says about it being 0.3% or less than whetever it is still good deal. Doubt average stack will be more than 10k at rebuy period end. Getting 2k chips for 1 buyin (but with no rake) if very good deal. Getting like 1/5th of average stack without outplaying opponents in tough situations is too good to miss.

      Also chips at rebuy period end are more valueble to you than at start. Bigger blinds and every chip matters. When you start its not really too big difference if you have 40BB stack or 50BB stack. You also want your stack to be as big as possible because if you hit monster and double up you wanna get those 2k more chips.

      Playing rebuy and not taking addon is playing like cheapskate and missing good opportunity because of that. Rebuy torunaments are not meant for players like that.

      And while we are at rebuy tournaments - you should also double buy in at start and whenever you bust. You want your stack to be as big as you can.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      I want to see what a coach says on this matter. Although I dont play these, i'm almost certain that both rebuying and adding-on are +ev.
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
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      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      Originally posted by cannell555
      I want to see what a coach says on this matter. Although I dont play these, i'm almost certain that both rebuying and adding-on are +ev.
      yup, true story. Reason has sometin to do with the independent chip model.

      Let's say there is a rebuy tourney, with 100 participants. These 100 participants can all go for a Guaranteed pricepool of 500$. Let's assume it's a 5$ tourney.

      At the start, you pay 5$, for a 1/100 chance on 500$.

      Then your aces get cracked, there are 90 players left, 10 of them have rebought, so have a stack of chips they bought later then at the start. There are 110 stacks in the game now, distributed over 90 players. Since there is a payout according to a finish position, we are now always closer to the money, then at the start.

      If you don't rebuy, you lost your chance for the big prices. No biggie, we can always start a new tourney. So ev = 0

      If you do rebuy, you pay 5$, for a pricepool of 550$, and with 110 stacks in the game, and 90 players. So if we look at it, strictly "chipwise", we hold 1/110 of all chips, and we paid 5$ for a 550$ pricepool. This ofcourse seems totally reasonable, but not profitable.

      But, and here is where the icm comes into play, there is another factor, namely, the number of players left!

      If you could buy in for 11$ in a 9 man 11$ sng that started 30 minutes ago, and where there are just 4 people left, would you do it?

      I'll answer for you: OF COURSE!!!! Since there are only 4 players left, you'd be the 5th player, and with a bit of luck, you'll easily make it to and beyond the bubble. You have a much smaller stack then the other players, but in sng's, that's not superimportant. It's more important to survive then to make your stack bigger, that's why we play so tight at early stages.

      For rebuy mtt, the exact same thing applies, just on a bigger scale. If you have 1/110 of the chips, but 90 players left, your chances to win the tourney are better then 1/110! This is definitely the most simplistic way I could explain this, so I hope you understand why rebuying is good now.

      ps: for add on the same thing kinda applies. However, if you make your stack only, let's say, 5% bigger, then it might be a bad idea. I'm not 100% sure, but the higher your chips are in a tourney (yes, I mean physically higher), the less they're worth. So if you add on to a short stack, you add some very valueable chips, but if you add on to a gigantic stack, the chips you add are worth much less. I'm not sure about this matter though, so on this topic, i'd like to pass, and see if someone else can explain it, and also see if he can give you a rule on when to add on and when not to add on.

      The +ev-ness of rebuying can even be of such extend, that a 45-55 situation can actually be profitable for you! I'm not doing that math for you 5:40 in the morning, but it makes that player rebuy tourneys slightly looser might be a good idea. However, since a lot of players play very loose, playing tighter might be the best idea, since IF you do get a hand, you'll get paid anyway. It's very hard to find the ideal line here, and since I'm not an mtt expert, i'm not gonna give you any tips regarding the style you should play in a rebuy, but this is an interesting and difficult topic, that could even change your playing style.
    • Semesa
      Semesa
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      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 294
      Originally posted by helemaalnicks
      Originally posted by cannell555
      I want to see what a coach says on this matter. Although I dont play these, i'm almost certain that both rebuying and adding-on are +ev.
      yup, true story. Reason has sometin to do with the independent chip model.

      Let's say there is a rebuy tourney, with 100 participants. These 100 participants can all go for a Guaranteed pricepool of 500$. Let's assume it's a 5$ tourney.

      At the start, you pay 5$, for a 1/100 chance on 500$.

      Then your aces get cracked, there are 90 players left, 10 of them have rebought, so have a stack of chips they bought later then at the start. There are 110 stacks in the game now, distributed over 90 players. Since there is a payout according to a finish position, we are now always closer to the money, then at the start.

      If you don't rebuy, you lost your chance for the big prices. No biggie, we can always start a new tourney. So ev = 0

      If you do rebuy, you pay 5$, for a pricepool of 550$, and with 110 stacks in the game, and 90 players. So if we look at it, strictly "chipwise", we hold 1/110 of all chips, and we paid 5$ for a 550$ pricepool. This ofcourse seems totally reasonable, but not profitable.

      But, and here is where the icm comes into play, there is another factor, namely, the number of players left!

      If you could buy in for 11$ in a 9 man 11$ sng that started 30 minutes ago, and where there are just 4 people left, would you do it?
      Sorry but im going to have to disagree with you here. By the end of a rebuy tournament in a $500-$5000 guaranteed tournament, at best, 5% of the players are gone. however in the analogy you made with the SnG tournament, more than 50% of the players are gone.
      In terms of ICM, 5% does not add that much to your chips(would you rebuy if you were playing a 20 man SnG and you were the 2nd man to go out?)

      as for your "110 stacks hence 1/110 of all the chips" arguement...
      what you have forgotten to take into account is that although you hold 1/110 of the entire chips in the tournament, that is still not as good a deal as the 1/100 you got when you first started. from what i can see, it would be better EV to just start a completely new tournament with 100 players.

      would you rather:
      $5 for 1/110 of the chips for $550
      or
      $50 for 1/100 of the chips for $545(if the expected prize pool of the tourney is $550 in the last one, then you can assume it will be $550 - your $5 rebuy)
    • curnow
      curnow
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      Joined: 10.10.2007 Posts: 1,039
      MackPDaddy the question you should be asking is What is a good strategy for Rebuy Tournaments

      a lot of experiance players like them because of the added value in rebuys and if you are starting out playing poker stick to freezeouts
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
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      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      would you rebuy if you were playing a 20 man SnG and you were the 2nd man to go out?


      DEFINATELY!

      Not rebuying here is clearly not the most profitable option.

      Im not asking you to believe me. I explained why rebuying is +ev. And sure, my sng analogy was abstract, bu it proves the point. If you don't wanna believe me, fine by me. It's because of people who don't rebuy, that rebuying is +ev.

      would you rather:
      $5 for 1/110 of the chips for $550
      or
      $50 for 1/100 of the chips for $545(if the expected prize pool of the tourney is $550 in the last one, then you can assume it will be $550 - your $5 rebuy)


      this doesn't make any sense. EV decisions are always based on pure math, and you're using the match wrong. If you don't rebuy, you don't have 1/100 for the final pricepool in the tourney.
    • Semesa
      Semesa
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      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 294
      the "not rebuy" option was more to the point of "instead of rebuying, buy into the next tournament"


      regardless, maybe my maths are wrong, if so, please forgive me.

      i will try rebuying over a few MTT's and see if/how it improves my stats
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
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      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      i will try rebuying over a few MTT's and see if/how it improves my stats


      a good sample for this test would be 5000+ mtt's....
    • Alexd10
      Alexd10
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      Joined: 07.07.2008 Posts: 609
      Originally posted by helemaalnicks
      i will try rebuying over a few MTT's and see if/how it improves my stats


      a good sample for this test would be 5000+ mtt's....
      lol, I reckon I could do that in a couple of days.

      imo Addons are a must, common sense says that you have a much better chance of winning the more chips you have. I find poker so much easier to play when you have a nice big stack rather than if you have 10 BB's for example.

      Rebuys are a different matter, for me it depends on my current BR and how much the rebuy is, however if I am going to rebuy I always double-rebuy, purely because the more chips you have the better chance you have.
    • Grimzor
      Grimzor
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 421
      Originally posted by Alexd10
      if I am going to rebuy I always double-rebuy, purely because the more chips you have the better chance you have.
      Thats the right thing. Always buy in double at start and double rebuy if you go busto. You want to have 2x big stack when you get your monster hand so when you double up against other big stack you will have way more chips :)
    • Semesa
      Semesa
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      Joined: 03.06.2008 Posts: 294
      Originally posted by helemaalnicks
      i will try rebuying over a few MTT's and see if/how it improves my stats


      a good sample for this test would be 5000+ mtt's....
      i was thinking of grinding 400 or so over the next 2 months with rebuy/addon...