5-Card Draw Low trips OOP

    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,913
      UTG is playing 62/23 of 125 hands, and losing about 5 BB/100
      MP is new to me -- only about 4 hands into this session
      BTN is well known to me, and is a winning player at higher limits.
      His is losing horribly down here though. At this limit he is playing 42/14 and and losing 14 BB/100 over 600 hands

      I have been trying to raise rather than call when it is warranted, but I can't really tell here.

      Feral Cow Poker
      PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $0.10/$0.20 - 6 players

      Button: $0.36
      SB: $5.35
      BB: $4.05 (Hero)
      UTG: $5.75
      MP: $1.30
      CO: $0.93

      Dealing Hands: ($0.15) 5:diamond: 3:heart: 3:club: Q:spade: 3:spade: (6 players)
      UTG raises to $0.20, MP calls $0.20, CO folds, Button raises to $0.30, SB folds, Hero calls $0.20, UTG calls $0.10, MP calls $0.10


      BTN's raise means more than UTG's had BTN not raised, I would have.
      Although standard is to cap pre with trips, I don't like that multi-way, and not with such a low 3-of-a-kind.

      I drew 2 rather than the std 1 since I wanted it to look like I was calling w/ a pair and a kicker. BTN knows I rarely do that, the others don't.

      My after-draw plan was check/call I expected a bluff from UTG
      I'm worried thought that this hand is an example of my lack-of-aggression leak.
      Would bet/fold be better?
      If I do bet, would any worse hands call? (assume sensible players )

      If either UTG or BTN has trips, they beat mine.
      The odds of SOMEBODY at the table

      First Draw: ($1.25) (4 players)
      Hero discards 2, UTG discards 3, MP discards 3, Button discards 1,
      3:heart: 3:club: 3:spade: || 4:heart: 2:diamond:
      Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Button checks

      Button mucked 6 Q 5 Q 6
      Hero showed 4:heart: 3:heart: 3:club: 2:diamond: 3:spade: , three of a kind, Threes
      UTG mucked J 9 A 9 2
      MP mucked A 3 K 8 K
      Hero won $1.19
      (Rake: $0.06)
  • 11 replies
    • badgerer
      badgerer
      Silver
      Joined: 29.03.2010 Posts: 555
      i'm not so good with 5CD but i have to say before i looked at the results my first thought was that BU might also have trips so i dont blame you for playing cautiously here.

      it seems unlikely that worse hands will call, i guess it depends really on how often you have been drawing 2 with trips and how suspicious you think a bet would look after drawing 2. i think it would look pretty strong in a 4 way 3 bet pot.
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      i) Cap pre. You want to charge UTG and MP to draw, especially if they have a pair, and it's not a disaster if they fold.
      ii) Postdraw is trickier, but I certainly think the button can call you with worse. It's much easier to get dealt two pair than trips. Given that it's four way, I'd be inclined to bet/fold, as it's hard to see BTN bluffing into three people, and if he's a decent player as you say, I don't think he's going to either raise pre with a flush draw or raise postdraw with two pair.

      Don't give the results next time. I don't think I'm being results-oriented, but you never know. :f_frown:
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,913
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      i) Cap pre. You want to charge UTG and MP to draw, especially if they have a pair, and it's not a disaster if they fold.
      I went 'round and 'round the 2nd-guess carousel on this one, and I pretty much fell off at the same conclusiion:

      Reasoning:
      Given the tendencies of UTG & MP BTN's 3Bet could be 2pr, though trips and pat hands are possible, but I can get away from those. I did not check his pat frequency, but if it was high, I would have had a note. Even AAxxx is possible for BTN.

      Cap might drive out pairs, which increases my chance of staying live.


      ii) Postdraw is trickier, but I certainly think the button can call you with worse. It's much easier to get dealt two pair than trips. Given that it's four way, I'd be inclined to bet/fold, as it's hard to see BTN bluffing into three people, and if he's a decent player as you say, I don't think he's going to either raise pre with a flush draw or raise postdraw with two pair.
      The other thing here is that capping pre sets up the CBet post-draw.
      Just calling pre put me in a corner unless I donk

      Thanks,
      --VS
    • semmel81
      semmel81
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.01.2007 Posts: 6,483
      Why do you care about BTN? His stack is just $0.36
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,913
      Originally posted by semmel81
      Why do you care about BTN? His stack is just $0.36
      Stack size is more-or-less irrelevant in FL, although he certainly can't raise me.

      BTN was well known to me, and as I said, was generally a good player.
      I thought it possible that he would have a higher trips than I did.
    • Yadumalchtoona18let
      Yadumalchtoona18let
      Basic
      Joined: 16.04.2013 Posts: 58
      Although standard is to cap pre with trips, I don't like that multi-way, and not with such a low 3-of-a-kind.


      Poker is not a facebook - it's not about likes/dislikes, it's about making the most EV+ decision.
      If you are ahead than cap this baby.

      333 clearly beats UTG and MP range, so EVEN IF you are slightly behind BTN 3-betting range capping still is better.
      333 is a median hand to sth like JJup+/QQup+(?) and I guess BTN is 3-betting it all the time, so you are even ahead of his range!

      Drawing 2 might scare others players...what if the showdown was like: QQup - KKup - JJup?
      So much value missed :s_frown:
      Not only by drawing 2 face up, but also from not taking a full advantage of predraw.
      62/23 player will call a cap with any hand that he decide to open raise, I can see him calling with those 99 too :)

      Postdraw with drawings like 3 vs 3 vs 1(BTN) standard VALUE BET all the time.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,913
      Hi, Yadumalchtoona18let
      Thanks for that!

      It sounds like you know your way around 5-Card Draw.

      I've been leaving value on the table for quite a while.

      If you read the last few entries in my blog, I've been raising whenever I'm ahead or likely to be.

      It makes for swingy sessions.

      I'm also going to have to organize my bluff-catching.

      If ever I call post-draw, they seem to have me beat.

      Cheers,
      --VS
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F

      I've been raising whenever I'm ahead or likely to be.

      Fix this leak, and you'll start winning some $$$.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,913
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F

      I've been raising whenever I'm ahead or likely to be.

      Fix this leak, and you'll start winning some $$$.
      Not sure what you're saying here.
      Is it the raise part that is the problem, or the "whenever"

      I can't see that I'm raising too much -- I'm playing roughly 19/14/5 predraw, which can't be anywhere near excessive.

      Or perhaps you're saying that I need to be raising with some part of my "not ahead nor likely to be" range. I've been doing this a bit more recently -- see my blog post from last night.

      Cheers,
      --VS
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,944
      I mean you raise to get called by worse, not because you're ahead. I suppose fl games preflop are a bit different, but it's the same principle.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,913
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      I mean you raise to get called by worse, not because you're ahead. I suppose fl games preflop are a bit different, but it's the same principle.
      Hmmm.....

      Reasons to raise:
        Get called by worse
        Get better to fold
        Cash-in Equity
        Balance

      Often, if all worse hands fold, you get the blinds.
      If worse (or better) DO call, then it is a drawing race -- and we have a post-draw dynamic to deal with.

      The statement "I've been raising whenever I'm ahead or likely to be. " was specifically referring to situations where I had a hand that exceeded the mid-way point of opponents perceived range and had been flatting them.

      In fact it was you that pointed out that TTxxx in the BB is often a 3Betting hand. That is just an example.

      In this case worse will quite possibly call, but I'm happy with a fold as well.

      Another is the hand I posted where the advice was to cap pre w/ 333, since doing otherwise is "leaving money on the table". There definitely times when I would NOT cap this pre -- but that depends on the player involved.

      So by raising more, I think I am more PLUGGING a leak than creating one.

      My far-and-away biggest leak though is "calling with worse"

      Cheers,
      --VS