Pokerstars Winrate without Rb ?

    • StarsFtp
      StarsFtp
      Global
      Joined: 27.06.2013 Posts: 367
      Just another question to rakeback and profitable winrate : i dont know how to count/ if i have 80% rb on ipoker and 0bb/100 breakeven winrate on plo 20 . How much would i need on stars or ftp with much lower rb for same profite?

      Or any other limit just to know how to count that.
  • 15 replies
    • ThatGuyMatt
      ThatGuyMatt
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2010 Posts: 3,758
      Hey :)

      It'd depend on how many hands you're playing and how much rake you're generating, without this it would be hard to say.

      If you can give us as much info as possible we'll try our best to find you the best room :)
    • StarsFtp
      StarsFtp
      Global
      Joined: 27.06.2013 Posts: 367
      Hello,

      Iam generating around 3k dollar overall rake per month and with special deal on ipoker i got 80% on that. These are around 30k hands/ month/ around 1k day...

      My question is : how much more winrate per bb/100 i need on stars or ftp to have possible more profit?

      If not over 5bb/100 more there , i would think its not worth it?

      Regards
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,916
      I'll have a stab at it.

      30,000 hands per month
      $3000 rake. x 80% = $2400

      At NL 100 that is 2400 BB
      At NL 50 that is 4800 BB

      So to make up for that, your winrate would need to increase by:
      2400 / 300 = 8 BB/100 at NL 100
      4800/ 300 = 16 BB/100 at NL 50

      That is assuming that there is no rakeback at all on the other site.

      If I got that horribly wrong, someone will correct me, I'm sure.

      If you are playing even higher limits, just use the pattern to work it out the same way.

      Best of luck,
      --VS
    • HergenL
      HergenL
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 2,548
      Hi mate,

      your question is very interesting but maybe a bit more complex than you realize I think, but I'll do my best to explain what you need to consider.

      @VorpalF2F: not wrong but I'm not sure that's a very helpful approach to look at it if you want to transfer the results.

      I try to be a bit more comprehensive while sticking to actual numbers:

      First of all you have to account for the lower Rake at PokerStars as well - less Rakeback does not necessarily mean less money in your pocket, if, like at PokerStars, the Rake is lower as well in return.

      Let's do a very simple example with fictional numbers, you should easily be able to transfer that to your actual results.

      For a start, let's assume you don't pay any rake. For a NL100 game it could be realistic that you win 10bb/100 from your opponents (if you're quite skilled obviously, I chose this number for ease of calculations).
      Now when rake come into play you will find that a realistic value how much you pay on those stakes in a fullring game is 5bb/100 in the iPoker network where you have standard 5% rake with $3 cap. For PokerStars in the same game it would be 4,5bb/100. These numbers are the true story by the way, we have simulated that over half a million real hands sample size with the respective rake structures.

      So you effectively win 5bb @iPoker and 5,5bb @ stars over 100 hands. That's the winrate your tracking program shows.

      Now Rakeback comes into play. Let's say you get 50% on stars and 80% on iPoker, i.e. you effictively pay only 50% of rake at stars and mere 20% of rake at iPoker.

      That changes your effective rake obviously. Now you effectively pay (5bb*0,2)=1bb/100 @iPoker and (4,5bb*0,5)=2,25bb/100 @stars. Obviously in this case your significantly better off with that iPoker deal, leaving you 9bb/100 instead of 7,75bb/100. This however shifts with the stakes played, as effective rake differs.


      Now obviously there's still many unknown variables in this whole calculation. First of all there's a different player pool which you might win more or less against. Then you have to consider, that you might be able to play more tables or hands per hour in one room than you you can at the other, or maybe you just like the gameflow better at one site.

      You should also consider your cashflow: If you don't pay an amount of rake in the first place, it stays in your bankroll and you don't have to wait until the end of the week or month or until you have claimed your bonus to have it available to play, which might enable you to move up stakes quicker. On the other hand it can be quite motivating to play towards a kind of "paycheck" which you get in a certain interval and a high rakeback bottom line can take away a bit of variance, which is important especially for people who play for a living and need their steady income.

      So at the end of the day it very much depends on quite a lot of factors, what is the best option for somebody. It's important to look at your $$-bottom line, but you should also consider other aspects like whether it's hobby or profession, how important a good software is for you, traffic of course... you can add to that list endlessly!

      I've written you a ticket incase you'd like to go deeper into these topics, would be nice to hear back from you!

      Kind regards,
      Hergen
    • StarsFtp
      StarsFtp
      Global
      Joined: 27.06.2013 Posts: 367
      Hello,

      Thx response but you dont answered at all one thing:

      With these amazon voichers or other things on stars OR ftp ( same for me)
      How much rb you get there ?

      I need some true rb numbers when exchanging things/gifts or direct bonus rb.

      On ipoker i get direkt cash, its some how much different on stars/ftp.

      Thx
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,916
      Originally posted by StarsFtp
      Hello,

      Thx response but you dont answered at all one thing:

      With these amazon voichers or other things on stars OR ftp ( same for me)
      How much rb you get there ?

      I need some true rb numbers when exchanging things/gifts or direct bonus rb.

      On ipoker i get direkt cash, its some how much different on stars/ftp.

      Thx
      Sorry, StarsFtp, I'm not sure I understand.

      I did not see any mention of vouchers before.

      If I understand properly, you can get vouchers from Stars?

      Do you have more information about them?

      Regards,
      --VS
    • jonnyjm
      jonnyjm
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.03.2008 Posts: 447
      Not really answering your question, but tbh you'll be better off staying at ipoker due to the following two reasons:

      1) Games will be tougher at Pokerstars

      2) Your rakeback % will be lower than the 80% you currently get


      Although rake is lower stars the games been tougher will balance the effect of paying less rake imo.
    • HergenL
      HergenL
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 2,548
      Hi StarsFtp,

      Regarding those vouchers you can get for your points at pokerstars: they differ in value depending on what vouchers are offered in your region, but it is true that they are usually quite good direct $-value for your points. However, it's really hard to estimate how much of a difference it makes for your bottom line. You must consider that you can't just add that money 1:1 to your bankroll but will need to find a buyer first and give up a little of the extra value on the sale to make it attractive for the buyer, that costs time as well, etc.
      Furthermore the vouchers aren't maximum value you can get from the VIP Store, for example the SuperNova Concierge Service has a better rakeback ratio and so have the highest cash bonuses.
      Your Rakeback in any tiered VIP system will generally depend on how long you save your points and you should not only consider how to get the highest percentage, but also that adding to your bankroll earlier (giving up a few percent) may enable you to move up in stakes quicker and thus, in the long run, have a better effect on your overall profitability.

      To know what's more profitable, you have to look at your true hourly winrate, considering all factors like your winrate, rake you pay, rakeback, number of tables you can play, time you spend with game selection etc. - That's obviously very hard to determine and you will find that most major poker rooms will not differ as substantially as one might think at first sight. Where one rooms gives more rakeback another allows you to table select more efficiently due to better traffic and thus you can have a better winrate, or you can play more tables with a better software.
      At the end of the day you should make a decision based on your preferences, some questions you should ask yourself are:

      - how much focus do you put on moving up stakes?
      - how important is your steady income?
      - do you want to game select a lot or are you happy playing any table?
      - does it motivate you to play towards a big payday later on or do you prefer money in your pocket right now?
      - how willing are you to put effort into optimizing your rewards?
      - where do you like the gameflow best?
      - how important is security of your money?

      So sorry if I don't have a definite answer for you, but I think there really is none. However, I hope this helps you make better educated decisions.

      Best regards,
      Hergen
    • nooni2k
      nooni2k
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.04.2012 Posts: 206
      I'm interested in quite a lot of stuff written in this thread however by far I am most interested by the claims in the OP

      Couple of questions for StarsFtp

      1) Firstly, how can you generate $3000 in rakeback per month while playing only 30k hands of $20 buy-in poker? Is PLO really raked that hard?

      2) 80% rakeback!!? :f_eek: Are you a prop player?
    • HergenL
      HergenL
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 2,548
      Hi, he was speaking of $3k gross rake, not rakeback, that's quite realistic with 30k hands PLO20.

      80% Rakeback is most likely an illegal deal from some smallish affiliate. Such deals exist and are not prop-deals, though you obviously run risk that your affiliate get's busted by the network and you never see your rakeback for timeframe X, having played for nothing.
      I would obviously not encourage anyone to play on a shady deal, but such offers are certainly very attractive to players who are willing to take a risk.
      Especially if playing professionally I would generally advise to rather stick to well established and trusted poker rooms and affiliates, even if you may miss out on a few percent. A full month's rakeback lost is usually quite a big blow for lowstakes professionals who play very rake intense variants like PLO.
    • nooni2k
      nooni2k
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.04.2012 Posts: 206
      Bah... I actually did intend to write "rake" not "rakeback".

      Still, that seems like an obscene amount. You wouldn't generate anywhere near that much playing NLHE.

      Can't understand why people play PLO if it really is raked that badly. Absurd.


      Anyway, thanks Hargen. I did consider that if might be some kind of affiliate deal just didn't realise they went that high.
    • HergenL
      HergenL
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 2,548
      Yeah, lowstakes PLO rake is a real pain, extremely hard to beat these games before rakeback.

      Deals with 80% are indeed quite rare, with a percentage like that as a flat deal I always wonder where the room or the affiliate can still make a profit. Indeed it's often the case they don't and thus the probability of a deal going bust usually increases with the percentage offered.

      You're very welcome, always glad If I can share some useful info :)
    • StarsFtp
      StarsFtp
      Global
      Joined: 27.06.2013 Posts: 367
      Hello,

      Just want to say that it isnt 80% any flat deal in any way.

      Just when counting everything i got from site, fdb and races money ( all added are 80%).

      On ipoker its like this: 46% from their vip system itself, 18% fdb, 20% races.

      So you come to 80% overall most of time.

      Also : the deal isnt illegal in any way and i got every cent of money at certain days.

      I dont want to advertise that, just let you know that it isnt illegal and possible without any problem.
    • Heffron89
      Heffron89
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      Joined: 23.01.2009 Posts: 813
      You rake 10 dollar per 100 hands or did i read it wrong?
    • acetbfish
      acetbfish
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      Joined: 11.03.2011 Posts: 804
      Basically, the rake on plo20 on ipoker is 50bbs/100 or I did misunderstand something? :f_o: