Cbet 100%, why not?

    • Rothko
      Rothko
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2009 Posts: 1,909
      Assuming our opponents will never adjust to our tendencies, is a 100% flop cbet frequency profitable, if our opponent(s) will continue playing only when they hit something?

      Same with the 3betting preflop, if our opponents will openraise a standard chart, but will continue calling or 4betting our 3bet only with a narrow range, isn't profitable to 3bet 100% of our hands (opponents never adjust)?

      I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle :)
  • 15 replies
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,921
      With initiative, I used to Cbet 100% at NL2-5 SH Zoom when I played it early this year.

      Worked a treat 90% of the time!
    • Rothko
      Rothko
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2009 Posts: 1,909
      That's exactly my point.

      What do you think is the ideal size of the cbet? And what about threebets?
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,338
      hey rothko

      given the information you have there about them playing fit/fold and never adjusting, then fine it's probably ok. however there are some flops that absolutely smash a preflop calling range and therefore they will be extremely borderline cases even against a fit/fold opponent who doesnt adjust. also, people will and do adjust - often people overadjust by default and float everyone WAY too much and so it will be hard to really follow this strategy against everyone without consideration. instead it would probably better to broaden your understanding of cbetting to the point where you can identify situations where it is ok to cbet 100% of your range and situations where it would be terrible to do so.

      so to figure out your required fold equity, just use this formula: invesment / (pot + investment) * 100%

      investment will be your cbet and pot is the pot before you cbet (or 3bet etc). this will give you the frequency that you need villain to fold to at least break even with a bet. for example: 3bb / (5bb + 3bb) * 100% = 37.5% so we need our opponent to fold at least 37.5% in order for our 3bb cbet to at least break even.

      next, give your opponent a range and put in a flop into equilab. click on the pie function next to the range and click the check boxes for all the hands that you think he will continue with vs a cbet. if he continues with this amount of hands, then he folds the rest. if he is folding a % which is equal to or greater than the required fold equity then a cbet of that sizing will be profitable. if you do this exercise a couple of times you'll get a feeling for not only how often people continue on different board textures, but you'll also get an idea for some good sizings.

      about the 3bets, yes it will be in theory but if some guy comes along and 3bets you every time you open raise i'm pretty sure you'll notice and do something :) but if he really won't adjust then just 3bet him to death i guess!
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,921
      I used to Cbet 75% of pot and probably only got raised 1 in 6-8 times.

      If I was called I would usually win with another bet unless the guy was slow playing which by the river became obv and I was just checking anyway.
    • patszerdonk
      patszerdonk
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.05.2011 Posts: 834
      Originally posted by Rothko
      Assuming our opponents will never adjust to our tendencies, is a 100% flop cbet frequency profitable, if our opponent(s) will continue playing only when they hit something?

      yes, but opponent will adjust. 70%-80% is ok
    • Rothko
      Rothko
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2009 Posts: 1,909
      Originally posted by DrDunne
      hey rothko

      given the information you have there about them playing fit/fold and never adjusting, then fine it's probably ok. however there are some flops that absolutely smash a preflop calling range and therefore they will be extremely borderline cases even against a fit/fold opponent who doesnt adjust. also, people will and do adjust - often people overadjust by default and float everyone WAY too much and so it will be hard to really follow this strategy against everyone without consideration. instead it would probably better to broaden your understanding of cbetting to the point where you can identify situations where it is ok to cbet 100% of your range and situations where it would be terrible to do so.

      so to figure out your required fold equity, just use this formula: invesment / (pot + investment) * 100%

      investment will be your cbet and pot is the pot before you cbet (or 3bet etc). this will give you the frequency that you need villain to fold to at least break even with a bet. for example: 3bb / (5bb + 3bb) * 100% = 37.5% so we need our opponent to fold at least 37.5% in order for our 3bb cbet to at least break even.

      next, give your opponent a range and put in a flop into equilab. click on the pie function next to the range and click the check boxes for all the hands that you think he will continue with vs a cbet. if he continues with this amount of hands, then he folds the rest. if he is folding a % which is equal to or greater than the required fold equity then a cbet of that sizing will be profitable. if you do this exercise a couple of times you'll get a feeling for not only how often people continue on different board textures, but you'll also get an idea for some good sizings.

      about the 3bets, yes it will be in theory but if some guy comes along and 3bets you every time you open raise i'm pretty sure you'll notice and do something :) but if he really won't adjust then just 3bet him to death i guess!
      Thank you very very much! That's exactly what I needed!

      :heart: :heart: :heart:
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,338
      great! glad it helped :)

      there is a very good article on this site about it but you'll have to grind for silver status to read it :D it breaks down cbetting quite well and explains how often different cbet sizings need to work in order to be profitable. ofc you already know how to do that now! but i definitely recommend the article if you can make silver.
    • Rothko
      Rothko
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2009 Posts: 1,909
      I've been gold for more than a year.. lol

      Anyway, how can I figure out when a 3bet is +EV instead?

      I wanna consider the cbet on the flop also, I mean when he will call to my 3bet but then fold on the flop, how can I do that?
    • Rothko
      Rothko
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2009 Posts: 1,909
      This is basically what I'm asking:

      http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15/poker-theory/math-profitability-two-related-moves-1229324/

      Maybe because English is not my first language but in the end I don't understand if it's possible to figure that out or not.. please help? ?(

      ps: Let's say my 3bet success% overall is 40%, and my cbet success in 3betted pots is 50%. How can I understand if my 3bet% is +EV?
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      C-betting 100% against an opponent playing fit or fold is just dumb. Why would you c-bet A2o on AsksTd flop vs an opponent who plays fit or fold? You can c-bet 100% of your air against anyone who has a to high fold to cbet and not adapting, but this still doesnt mean you should c-bet 100% of your hands.
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by Rothko
      This is basically what I'm asking:

      http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15/poker-theory/math-profitability-two-related-moves-1229324/

      Maybe because English is not my first language but in the end I don't understand if it's possible to figure that out or not.. please help? ?(

      ps: Let's say my 3bet success% overall is 40%, and my cbet success in 3betted pots is 50%. How can I understand if my 3bet% is +EV?
      Essentially what is happening if opponent raises 3bb, 1.5bb dead money from blinds and you 3bet to 11bb and cbet 15bb, then:

      40% of the time you win 4.5bb
      30% of the time you win 15.5bb
      30% of the time you lose 26bb

      EV is 0.4*4.5+0.3*15.5-0.3*26

      So its -1.35bb EV if you lose every time your cbet gets called. However this won't happen as you always have some equity, so generally this will be +EV.
    • Rothko
      Rothko
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2009 Posts: 1,909
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      C-betting 100% against an opponent playing fit or fold is just dumb. Why would you c-bet A2o on AsksTd flop vs an opponent who plays fit or fold? You can c-bet 100% of your air against anyone who has a to high fold to cbet and not adapting, but this still doesnt mean you should c-bet 100% of your hands.
      So what would be the right strategy?

      Also I can't see why cbetting 100% on the flop is dumb if my opponents fold more than 41%. Do you mind explaining better?

      Thanks
    • variancekiller
      variancekiller
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2010 Posts: 896
      He means that when you have the best hand and you c-bet opponent will fold. However if you don't c-bet you might be able to get some value out of your hand by letting him bluff the turn or hit something himself and bet turn and river.
    • Rothko
      Rothko
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2009 Posts: 1,909
      Originally posted by metza
      Originally posted by Rothko
      This is basically what I'm asking:

      http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15/poker-theory/math-profitability-two-related-moves-1229324/

      Maybe because English is not my first language but in the end I don't understand if it's possible to figure that out or not.. please help? ?(

      ps: Let's say my 3bet success% overall is 40%, and my cbet success in 3betted pots is 50%. How can I understand if my 3bet% is +EV?
      Essentially what is happening if opponent raises 3bb, 1.5bb dead money from blinds and you 3bet to 11bb and cbet 15bb, then:

      40% of the time you win 4.5bb
      30% of the time you win 15.5bb
      30% of the time you lose 26bb

      EV is 0.4*4.5+0.3*15.5-0.3*26

      So its -1.35bb EV if you lose every time your cbet gets called. However this won't happen as you always have some equity, so generally this will be +EV.
      Thank you for the explanation!

      Let's say I will lose 60% of the time my cbet flop gets called.. how do I manage that?
    • Rothko
      Rothko
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.09.2009 Posts: 1,909
      Originally posted by variancekiller
      He means that when you have the best hand and you c-bet opponent will fold. However if you don't c-bet you might be able to get some value out of your hand by letting him bluff the turn or hit something himself and bet turn and river.
      Yes. So the right strategy would be to cbet all air, weak made hands, draws and strong made hands on boards that hit opponent range. Checking with medium made hands on uncoordinated board and strong made hand on board that misses opponent range?