Push/Fold 10BB /13BB

    • DSharkP
      DSharkP
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.09.2012 Posts: 171
      Hey Guys

      I am a big fan of Collin Moshman, and couple of years back i was reading his book, on SNG.
      I ´ve been playing cash games for a while now, and i decided to start playing SNG again probably 9-Man and 45-Man i guess.

      I was wondering with more and more information these days, whats +EV, starting the push/fold phase with 10BB or 13BB ?

      Thanks
  • 6 replies
    • SamarietisLv
      SamarietisLv
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.09.2012 Posts: 2
      Well i am a new here , but i hope i can talk in here... I start my push or fold game when i am about 10 bb , but sometimes i more look at the situation at tournament and at the table and start it a little bit sooner ...
    • TinoLaan
      TinoLaan
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,411
      Hey SamarietisLv!

      Welcome to the forum! Of course you are able and allowed to talk in here! In fact, we'd encourage you to! :)

      Since this is your first post here, why not take the opportunity to go and introduce yourself to the rest of the community?

      As far as the topic is concerned, I think it really depends. Against some players it can be better to start shoving at 13bb, against others it might be better to start shoving with 10bb. For example, if your edge in a tournament is smaller or you don't have an edge at all, it might be worth it to start shoving a little earlier, because you won't be able to use your post flop skills to your advantage.

      I'm not really an SNG player, but I play MTTs fairly regularly. And in those, if you have an edge you want to try and play post flop as much as possible with the weaker players, and if you don't you probably want to gamble a bit more in certain situations to get a stack, because you don't have a post flop advantage.

      Of course, maybe SNGs are completely different in that regard, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong! Though I'd imagine it's quite similar.

      Either way, as always in poker, the answer is: "it depends".
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Originally posted by DSharkP
      Hey Guys

      I am a big fan of Collin Moshman, and couple of years back i was reading his book, on SNG.
      I ´ve been playing cash games for a while now, and i decided to start playing SNG again probably 9-Man and 45-Man i guess.

      I was wondering with more and more information these days, whats +EV, starting the push/fold phase with 10BB or 13BB ?

      Thanks
      Hi, DSharkP!

      As many people will tell you-it depends. It depends so much that every short answer will be misleading. I will give you a few examples to tell u what I mean:

      Number 1-6man sng- you are on the bubble as a midstack with a considerable lead over the small stack. The big stack is on the BB and has you well covered-let's assume he has double the chips you've got. BTN is the small stack-6bb and he folds. You are sitting in the SB with 15bb holding 77. You expect the BB to re-steal lose if you raise. What's best to do? Due to the extremely high ICM tax, you need to push 77 and not even thinking about raising.


      Another example, you are sitting in the BTN, 10-man SnG, 8 players left. Effective stack size is 16bb. You hold 77. Both blinds are loose aggressive opponents who are expected to re-steal very lose and rarely flat. Then, you need to r/c 77 because ICM tax is low and you want to induce those guys to ship all their 22-66, A2-A7, K2s-K7s that you crush. You can also push profitable pre, but we gain more value by inducing them. For what's it's worth, vs the right opponents, I will go down to r/c 44-55+ in comparison with shipping pre.

      Third scenario-you are sitting in the SB holding 33 or A2o for 15bb eff. vs the loose passive opponent in the BB, 7-players left, FR sng. Best is to push as when you raise preflop, you expect the 40/10 fish to flat a big portion of hands, be stubborn postflop and you hold a hand that has super bad playability postflop OOP. So shipping here is best.

      Let's say you face the same opponent, everything else remains, just that this time you hold K2s instead of 44/A2o-ofc you can ship preflop and expect it to be a + EV shove most of the time, but I would suggest taking the smaller variance/safer approach by limp/stabbing the stationary BB.


      Examples can go on and on and on. Best is to create a game that is very flexible, so that you can benefit the most. To summarize it-I will play more exploitive vs fish and more unexploitable vs regs. However, even that is questionable as every reg has weak spots and it's a game of adjustments.
    • DSharkP
      DSharkP
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.09.2012 Posts: 171
      Thanks for the advice.


      Guess this " dependence " is probably +ev ahah

      :f_grin:
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Yeah, hahah...you can put it this way :P
    • Jmm256
      Jmm256
      Basic
      Joined: 16.12.2011 Posts: 37
      You may want to search for the information on min raising instead of just shoving at 10bb. There are a lot of players who would 3bet shove the same range as they would call an all in, and so you can make a lot more money min raising instead. This is a relatively common spot I thin