NL25 Zoom stack off preflop ranges

    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,073
      Played 3k hands nl25 at zoom, but do not remmeber so far light stack offs preflop. when I get In, I rememeber AA.

      I aslso remember that guy called prefllop OOP w KK, and guy called preflop OOP vs UTG w QQ.

      So the question is - do I get value when I get in preflop w KK? Or I just donate money?

      For KK to win - there has to be some bluffs so I make money from their folds but I need to get value from QQ, AK. WHich I doubt somehow they are having.

      Lets say BTN opens w QQ, he can easily call 3bet IP.



      Another thing - 5bets

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
      SB ($40.96)
      BB ($75.51)
      UTG ($28.19)
      UTG+1 ($29.99)
      CO ($180)
      Hero ($25.69)

      Dealt to Hero J:heart: J:diamond:

      fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.50, SB raises to $1.50, fold, Hero raises to $3.50, SB raises to $6, Hero calls $2.50

      FLOP ($12.25) 8:spade: Q:club: 8:heart:

      SB bets $5.25, Hero folds

      SB wins $11.70

      Usually I am happy 4bet/push JJ BTN vs SB. BUt this time it looked like value from him, I did not know hwat to do, I get 20% pot odds and called.

      On flop this could be a bluff with such big sizing w AK but I am not sure and folded. But then - with AK if he thinks I am bluffing - he could shove preflop.

      And on the other hand - my 4bet sizing is small so he needs lot of fold equity when he shoves becuase he invests lot of money comparing to the pot size.

      I think I could just call 3bet IP without having info how ligth he can get in, because otherwise it looks like 4bet/fold situation. BUt it sucks 4bet bluff with JJ.
  • 12 replies
    • johny8984
      johny8984
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.08.2009 Posts: 62
      With your jj this is where a hud can help you make the correct choice

      Not sure if your playing 6max or full ring

      With 6max nl25 I saw qq+ aq+ quite frequently full ring nl 25 im not so sure as only played a few hands

      But the most important thing to remember is that over time you will cooler someone else with aa vs kk so it averages out overtime kk is always profitable all in pre

      Hope I explained this clearly enough if not feel free to ask for some clarification and ill try explain it better
    • immot
      immot
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.05.2007 Posts: 153
      At NL25Z KK all-in preflop is definet +EV, as you find weird/bluff shoves from later positions like before mentioned AQ, AK, JJ, QQ, sometimes even KQs, AJs, 99+ (and some random hero shoves with K2s etc.) - ofc depends on opponent.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      You can't just generalize the whole player pool and determine your ''preflop stackoff ranges''

      It always depends and the player and even more so on your own image. Yes there are players that will only stack off with KK+ in some spots and if your holding KK then guess what he has.

      But overall what you have to consider is how he plays. If someone is 4betting 15% sb vs bb then you can easily ship TT+ and AQ even. If someone is 4betting 0.5% utg then you can consider folding everything but AA. You can often even flat KK in that spot if his fold 2 3bet is high.

      Another thing you have to consider is your own image. If your playing a good reg and you 4bet him sb vs bb and he ships on you whats his range? If the reg is somewhat good then his range will 100% depend on your SB 4betting range. Like if you 4bet only 4% in that spot his never going to ship as wide as if you'd be 4betting 15%.

      Basically if your a nit then KK can often be a fold, if your an agro monkey then you can't even fold JJ preflop. Its all situational.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,073
      I was meaning - no image, unknown players. With stats and dynaic its similar to regular non zoom games.

      I talk about 6max btw.

      The problem is there that pool is big so create image and collect real stats about this takes time.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      In general in 6max KK and even QQ and AK are always a stackoff against unknowns.

      Even in FR you won't be folding KK but with QQ and AK you should be careful with since there's a few supernits in FR zoom.


      That would be my general gameplan against total unknowns. But if your a zoom reg that plays 4 tables you will get like 1k hands on most of the regs in a week anyway and there's nothing wrong with playing a bit tight until you do.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,073
      ok, thanks
    • booomm
      booomm
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 677
      getting it in with KK preflop for 100bb is +EV regardless of stakes unless you are playing a monumental nit.
    • holmeboy
      holmeboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2010 Posts: 1,336
      I don't really like stacking off with QQ/AK against an unknown open from EP/MP because I never think we're doing that well... Agree KK is +ev
    • booomm
      booomm
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 677
      Originally posted by holmeboy
      I don't really like stacking off with QQ/AK against an unknown open from EP/MP because I never think we're doing that well... Agree KK is +ev
      I think even stacking QQ/AK still slightly +EV vs EP/MP unknown, but I mostly try to play postflop vs compete unknowns or 0 reads.
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      I think it depends on position a lot.

      KK, QQ, AK are shotgun stack offs/5b with late position battles. But in battles that include UTG I think getting it in with QQ against such a strong stacking off range is not max EV.

      Verses UTG I think an average nl25 stacking off range would be something like QQ+, AKs and half of AKo.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,073
      they stack off light in zoom, prove:

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
      SB ($22.83)
      BB ($28.63)
      UTG ($27.27)
      UTG+1 ($15.17)
      Hero ($29.56)
      BTN ($14.62)

      Dealt to Hero A:heart: K:spade:

      fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.75, fold, SB raises to $2.50, fold, Hero raises to $5.50, SB raises to $16.75, Hero raises to $29.56 (AI), SB calls $6.08 (AI)

      FLOP ($45.91) J:diamond: Q:heart: Q:spade:

      TURN ($45.91) J:diamond: Q:heart: Q:spade: 3:spade:

      RIVER ($45.91) J:diamond: Q:heart: Q:spade: 3:spade: 2:diamond:

      SB shows 3:diamond: 3:heart:
      (Pre 53%, Flop 50.3%, Turn 100.0%)

      Hero shows A:heart: K:spade:
      (Pre 47%, Flop 49.7%, Turn 0.0%)

      SB wins $43.91


      Unknown player so no dynamic :)
    • thirit2
      thirit2
      Basic
      Joined: 19.10.2012 Posts: 120
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      You can't just generalize the whole player pool and determine your ''preflop stackoff ranges''

      It always depends and the player and even more so on your own image. Yes there are players that will only stack off with KK+ in some spots and if your holding KK then guess what he has.

      But overall what you have to consider is how he plays. If someone is 4betting 15% sb vs bb then you can easily ship TT+ and AQ even. If someone is 4betting 0.5% utg then you can consider folding everything but AA. You can often even flat KK in that spot if his fold 2 3bet is high.

      Another thing you have to consider is your own image. If your playing a good reg and you 4bet him sb vs bb and he ships on you whats his range? If the reg is somewhat good then his range will 100% depend on your SB 4betting range. Like if you 4bet only 4% in that spot his never going to ship as wide as if you'd be 4betting 15%.

      Basically if your a nit then KK can often be a fold, if your an agro monkey then you can't even fold JJ preflop. Its all situational.
      Nicely said.