MTT selection

    • Everto1
      Everto1
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2011 Posts: 255
      Hey there!

      I want to dedicate my self to tournament poker, im now playing at pokerstars with a bankroll of 250 dollars. I want to play with 100 BI but im having a hard time finding poker tournaments to enter, since im used to SnG and cash (easy multi tabling)

      Can someone help in terms of tourn selection? At pokerstars if possible
  • 9 replies
    • TinoLaan
      TinoLaan
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,411
      Hey Everto1,

      First of all, there is a really good video on game selection. Of course it'll work better for bigger bankrolls, but it's still really useful information. You can find it here: http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/26064/

      With $250 there's really not that many tournaments you can play. Most people will tell you to build more of a BR by playing MT SNGs first. With $250 you can also certainly play some $1 MTTs, but anything higher than that is already too much, really. If you want to play MTTs, you need to work with an ABI (average BI) of 200 at least. Most people will tell you to have even more (300+).

      And I can definitely agree, playing the MT SNGs is a better way to build a BR, because you can put in a lot more volume than with just normal MTTs (there's not really that many $1 MTTs running every day, and even then you won't be able to play all of them), and they take much less time than normal MTTs.

      So I'd recommend playing MT SNGs mostly, and mixing them in with some normal MTTs from time to time :)

      Asaban is more of an expert on this though :D
      So we'll see what he has to say about this as well!

      Regards,
      Tino
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,241
      Thanks for the compliment Tino :s_love:

      I would recommend 400 ABI +x for standard Stars tournaments, especially when playing the micro's. The variance is ridiculous if you play against thousands of players.

      With a 250$ BR I would recommend playing mtsng's as well, so you can build up your bankroll to at least 1k$, before transfering to the standard MTT's.

      Best choice would be the 1$ 90men Turbo's. If you don't like the turbo structure you may try the 1,5$ 90men KO's which are non turbo MTSNG's.

      In addition you can mix in any tournament up to 1$ buyin, as long as your average buyin stays way below that mark.

      As soon as you reach 625$ bankroll I would recommend to switch to the 2,5$ 180men turbo's.
      For the 180men mtsng's I would recommend at least 250 Buyins. The 180s are the best way to improve your tournament play, because you get every aspect of tournament play in a short period of time.

      I wouldn't recommend taking any shots at higher buyins that are out of your normal BRM. They will only slow you down in your progression.

      If you have any further questions feel free to ask!

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • TinoLaan
      TinoLaan
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,411
      Thanks for the compliment Tino :s_love:
      You're welcome :f_love:

      And thanks for the great answer!
    • acerbikas
      acerbikas
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.01.2011 Posts: 229
      I am kind of baffled after reading this and watching Elder's video. I supposed having a 100BI BR was enough for MTTs, if you feel confident enough to have a riskier approach. Apparently, that was and is not the case.

      A bunch of questions have arisen henceforth:

      1. If you tend to limit yourself to under <1k players in NL, should you really stick to hyper-conservative BRM?
      2. Continuing #1, isn't it site- and confidence-dependent? For example, I know that I do beat the field and continue to play MTTs profitably on Party, where I am underrolled but I know I make profit even with 30-50BI downswings. Should I really have a huge bankroll just to stay there without being an investment?
      3. From a different opera: I keep mixing PLO tourneys with holdem -- now I know for sure that PLO tourneys have much fewer players, so again, in spite of the variance, knowing full well I adapt rather well in those tourneys, should I keep a 100BI+ bankroll? Unless you are going for every single tourney without selecting tourneys which are more profitable ...

      Of course, these questions have arisen due to the fact that I spread my bankroll over many sites and cashed out a bit to sustain myself.
    • TinoLaan
      TinoLaan
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,411
      I'll have a crack at these as well.

      1. If you tend to limit yourself to under <1k players in NL, should you really stick to hyper-conservative BRM?
      No, you don't generally really need 400+ ABI for smaller tournaments. Hence why Asaban mentioned 250 BI for the 180mans.

      However, even smaller field tournaments, especially if they're turbo, can still be quite variance heavy, so you certainly don't want to drop too low. that's for sure. Less players means less variance, yes, but variance is still pretty large anyway.

      2. Continuing #1, isn't it site- and confidence-dependent? For example, I know that I do beat the field and continue to play MTTs profitably on Party, where I am underrolled but I know I make profit even with 30-50BI downswings. Should I really have a huge bankroll just to stay there without being an investment?
      That's certainly true. The better you are, the more aggressive your BRM can be. People say that real BRM is only for winning players. Winning players need BRM, people that don't know yet if they are winnings players need a budget to play with.

      At least, that's what they say. For example, winning cash game players can then use the following formula to determine their bankroll requirements (not really sure if and how this applies to tournament players):

      bankroll = comfort * standard deviation^2 / win rate

      So basically yes, the more comfortable you are, the more aggressive you can be in your BRM. But this is pretty tricky, because you need a large sample to really know if you are comfortable and are really winning.

      3. From a different opera: I keep mixing PLO tourneys with holdem -- now I know for sure that PLO tourneys have much fewer players, so again, in spite of the variance, knowing full well I adapt rather well in those tourneys, should I keep a 100BI+ bankroll? Unless you are going for every single tourney without selecting tourneys which are more profitable ...
      Can't really comment on this because I don't really play PLO. However, considering it's PLO and an MTT, both of which inherently have a lot of variance, I'd say you definitely need 100+ BI.

      But like I said, I don't really play PLO so I'm not 100% certain about this.
    • acerbikas
      acerbikas
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.01.2011 Posts: 229
      With PLO you rarely have an amount of players exceeding 200 and on party it barely reaches 150, so in spite of the nature of both the game type and the variance, I do believe that you can make do with a smaller bankroll.

      The reason why this popped up is that a large chunk of my tourney winnings on micro tourneys comes from PLO/PLO8 tourneys (~60%) and I never adhered to a formal BRM since I started playing them. Yet, while I feel downright comfortable playing them tourneys, I do not feel like opening all available ones at the same time so as to limit the variance a bit.
    • BubbleNedRum
      BubbleNedRum
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.02.2011 Posts: 3,606
      Originally posted by Asaban
      Best choice would be the 1$ 90men Turbo's. If you don't like the turbo structure you may try the 1,5$ 90men KO's which are non turbo MTSNG's.

      In addition you can mix in any tournament up to 1$ buyin, as long as your average buyin stays way below that mark.

      As soon as you reach 625$ bankroll I would recommend to switch to the 2,5$ 180men turbo's.
      For the 180men mtsng's I would recommend at least 250 Buyins. The 180s are the best way to improve your tournament play, because you get every aspect of tournament play in a short period of time.
      it is a freaking long way with the 1$ KOs to a BR of 625$.
      i would suggest playing the 1.50$ 45 man, because you can move up to the 3.50$ with a BR of around 400.
      if you just play the 90s there is nowhere you can move up to and it could get quite frustrating if you beat these games well and still need to grind them because of BRM
      or you could start mixing 1$ 90s and 1.50$ 45s
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,241
      Hey guys,

      Tino already delivered some great answers. To get you the best possible answers I will add my own thoughts on it as well. In most cases these will be quite similar to the opinions expressed by Tino.

      Originally posted by acerbikas
      1. If you tend to limit yourself to under <1k players in NL, should you really stick to hyper-conservative BRM?
      The 400ABI BRM is especially tailored to suit standard Stars tournaments. These will normally have >>1k players in them. If you play on sites with smaller fields or choose the capped tournaments you may adjust your BRM accordingly.

      In general:
      More players >>> more Buyins.
      Faster structure (Turbo, Superturbo etc) >>> more Buyins.
      Topheavier structure (f.e. winner takes it all) >>> more Buyins.
      The lower your edge >>> more Buyins.

      Therefore you will need infinite Buyins for a 100$ Hyperturbo in winner takes it all format with only sharks registered. Quite obvious I guess =)


      Originally posted by acerbikas
      2. Continuing #1, isn't it site- and confidence-dependent? For example, I know that I do beat the field and continue to play MTTs profitably on Party, where I am underrolled but I know I make profit even with 30-50BI downswings. Should I really have a huge bankroll just to stay there without being an investment?
      In contrary to Tino's thoughts I don't think that your confidence should play a big role in your BRM. First of all most players overrate themselves by far. It's hard to tell how good you are exactly - especially in tournaments.

      Furthermore your skill won't influence the variance as much as you might think. Even the best players will encounter 100 or even 200 buyin downswings frequently when playing mtt's. Even bigger swings are not too uncommon.

      A conservative BRM helps you to get over it without having to climb down the ladder to fast. At the same time it's very important for your mindset. If I play a 100 ABI BRM it is a big psychologic problem to lose 50BI's. On the other hand, if you have a 400 ABI BRM you would still feel comfortable without the fear of loss.

      Conclusion:
      Since variance is much higher in MTT's your confidence shouldn't be part of your BRM imo.


      Originally posted by acerbikas
      3. From a different opera: I keep mixing PLO tourneys with holdem -- now I know for sure that PLO tourneys have much fewer players, so again, in spite of the variance, knowing full well I adapt rather well in those tourneys, should I keep a 100BI+ bankroll? Unless you are going for every single tourney without selecting tourneys which are more profitable ...
      First of all I wouldn't recommend mixing NLH tournaments with PLO tournaments. It's two absolutely different games with a different thought process. Therefore one of both will always suffer from your lack of attention.

      Regarding BRM for the PLO tournaments:
      You can play them with a 100 ABI BRM as long as the field sizes are very small (~150 players) and you give yourself a decent edge in the game. The structure should be a standard structure of course (no turbo's).

      Note that you will need more buyins for a PLO tournament then you would need for an indentical (in terms of buyin and number of players) NLH tournament, because the variance is a lot higher.


      Originally posted by acerbikas
      Of course, these questions have arisen due to the fact that I spread my bankroll over many sites and cashed out a bit to sustain myself.
      Because some players don't realize it:
      Spreading your bankroll is not a problem when it comes to BRM considerations. You can add all of your bankrolls together and play your BRM depending on your total BR as long as it is available at any time if needed.
      There is no need to have your whole 4k$ BR at pokerstars in order to play a 10$ ABI, as long as it available at the time.


      @BubbleNedRum:
      True!
      The 1$ 90 men were just a recommendation to get started. It makes perfect sense to climb up the ladder playing 45/90/180men turbo's as they get available (read: as soon as your bankroll allows you to play them). It might need a few adjustments when switching from 90men to 45men, but adjustments are always important when playing tournaments.

      Longterm the 180men should be your primary goal.

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • Everto1
      Everto1
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.01.2011 Posts: 255
      Amazing answers, thank you!! Great mods and community!