[NL20-NL50] NL50 SH - JJ, 3bet oop, low flop

    • kesgab
      kesgab
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.05.2007 Posts: 217
      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      Hero:
      $97,25
      CO:
      $48,50

      0,25/0,5 No-Limit Hold'em (4 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.60 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with J:diamond: , J:spade:
      CO raises to $2,00, BU folds, Hero raises to $6,50, BB folds, CO calls $4,50.

      Flop: ($13,50) 4:club: , 5:diamond: , 5:spade: (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO bets $9,00, Hero calls $9,00.

      Turn: ($31,50) T:diamond: (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO checks.

      River: ($31,50) Q:club: (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO checks.

      Final Pot: $31,50


      I just noticed here after trying to evalute this hand that it seems i have no idea what this 3betting thing is all about!!! :)
      I explain it:
      It is standard to 3bet w JJ after CO first in raise. He calls, it's a low flop, so i have overpair which is good, so i have to cbet. Let's say he calls and the turn card is blank. Now we have a potsize bet left, i am commited, i push, he calls. Right? I don't think so. It looks like everything i'd make is correct, but i would end up mostly behind.
      So i just realized, that i have to decide when i make a 3bet, if i want to get it allin or not. Cause he could have 4bet me, or raise my possible flop cbet and i would face the same problem.
      So i guess there are like speculative 3betting hands, which i fold to 4bet, or be cautious on the flop and c/f or b/f them sometimes, and there are all-in hands, with which i don't mind getting all the money in.
      And i should decide which kind of hand i am holding against that particular opponent i am 3betting. Cause i need a plan :)
      Am i right?

      In this hand, can i go allin with JJ against this unknown?
      I think no, cause a normal all-in range is AK,QQ+ against which i am quite big underdog. So how to procedd on the flop? Bet/fold?

      Thanks in advance,
      kesgab
  • 5 replies
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      You can a lot of value with medium pp-s.
      So no need to c/c to induce bluff- I´d rather then go c/rai, since he won´t put you on overpair. You´re going to 3-bet to get worse hands to call pf. On that flop you´re 90% ahead and I´m wiling to play here stacks always, by starting out making 1/2 on the flop, 1/2 on the turn and the rest on the river.
    • kukac26
      kukac26
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.11.2007 Posts: 126
      Have to agree with Kaitz here..

      it all depends on the data on villain, tho.. I think you're ahead here (only three killers here.. AA-QQ). Vast majority of hands he can call there you have beat.. so raise all-in with a light heart :)
    • kesgab
      kesgab
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.05.2007 Posts: 217
      Soory, i have to ask about this hand again, cause i'd like to understand it.

      I don't see why i am clearly ahead on the flop if we commit ourselves. Could you give a range for this unknown villain with which he call a 3bet? Probably i underestimate that range, cause i would think that it's something like this:
      AA,KK (not always)
      QQ-TT, AK,
      KQ (sometimes)
      And i think i am not a clear favorit against this range if the money goes in.
      I see my hand is clearly good for one bet, cause that bet wouldn't necessarily mean strenght, but if the rest of the stack is going in on this turn for example, i don't see what worse hands would pay me off.

      Also i would like to ask what can i do if i villain 4bets preflop. Can i go broke with JJ against full stack unknown, or should i fold there?

      Thanks,
      kesgab
    • kesgab
      kesgab
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.05.2007 Posts: 217
      I forgot to check 'Advise the judge of taking another look at this thread',
      this will do it.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      24/15 would not raise/call only with TT+, KQ, AK.
      Most likely he´ll raise/4-bet with QQ+, AK and call some medium pp-s, suited connectors, AQ, AJ, JTs+, 66-JJ, KTs+ to make a play a lot of flops or call at least one bet on the flop and then decide on the turn.
      So you´re ahead here very often and you should get enough value with your strong hand by betting half size pot on the turn and the rest on the river.
      Against 4-bet you can fold JJ, since you´re only flipping against AK.