Open shoving >13bb

    • TinoLaan
      TinoLaan
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,411
      Hey guys,

      Lately I've been running into some problems when playing with stacks of, say, between 10 and 30bb. Yes I know, that's a very wide range of stack sizes that all require different types of play, but bear with me okay? :f_biggrin:

      Maybe "problems" isn't really the right term to use either. It's more specific types of scenarios where I'm unsure what's best. For example, take the following hypothetical scenario:

      BU (Hero) (40bb)
      SB (20bb)
      BB (20bb)

      There's antes in play, so plenty of dead money in the pot.

      Let's assume this is a full ring table, where everyone folds to you on the Button. You have 44. Both blinds are aggressive and resteal very often. What do you do now? Obviously there's a bunch of options.

      1) Fold
      2) Raise/fold
      3) Raise/call
      4) Open shove

      Of course you can also open limp, but I think we can all agree that that's a pretty bad option.

      Now, I think folding is too weak. At least it feels that way. 44 with 20bb effectively is just a pretty decent hand. However, we know that both blinds tend to 3bet shove here pretty often. We don't really want to raise/call with 44, because you're usually flipping at best.

      So imo it's between raise/fold and open shoving here. Now open shoving seems like it would be kind of ridiculous for 20bb, but do you think it might actually be the most profitable option here? If we raise we have to fold to a 3bet pretty often. If we open jam though, we don't give either of them the option to shove on us and force them to have a hand, meaning we have a lot of fold equity.

      So would you consider an open shove here the most +EV play? Or would raise/fold be better because it's probably a less variance play?

      Improving my play with these stack sizes is something I've been working on quite a bit. My edge is mostly post flop, because that's where most players make mistakes. So I feel like I'm losing too much in spots like this where pretty much every single option isn't that great. I feel like I'm just picking the wrong option too often. Also, I'm having some trouble figuring out how to really work on this part of my game.

      Any suggestions/ideas/opinions are welcome :)

      Of course this is just one of the scenarios where I'm struggling, but I don't want to write a huge wall of text with all the problems I'm having, so I'll leave it at this for now :f_biggrin:
  • 8 replies
    • Wohmfg
      Wohmfg
      Silver
      Joined: 12.11.2009 Posts: 500
      If they are restealing wide, I am happy to pick up 44 on BU and raise/call. :f_biggrin:

      Let's do the quick maths tho:

      If you minraise and SB shoves, you are calling 18bb to win ~43bbs (with antes), which means you need 41.9% equity.

      If you minraise and BB shoves, you are calling 18bb to win ~41.5bbs, meaning 43.4% equity is required.

      Even against a resteal of just 18%, 66+,A5s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,A9o+,KTo+,QJo,JTo, 44 has 44.4% equity, making it a call in both cases. This range doesn't have one hand that we dominate.

      And of course as they are only shoving 18%, we get folds pre more often than not, so raise/calling 44 vs a wide resteal range is very profitable imo.
    • Wohmfg
      Wohmfg
      Silver
      Joined: 12.11.2009 Posts: 500
      Also, I feel that open shoving is going to get calls from a strong range, and for 20bbs the amount of folds isn't going to make up for the amount of times your shoving range gets called and is crushed.

      20bbs is just too much to risk shoving imo, but I will have to do the maths on it.
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,473
      Hey Tino =)

      I prefer raise/call as well. Wohmfg explained it quite nicely. Imo it's the maxEV play. I even feel pretty comfortable doing it with 44. We will always have a decent equity against their restealing range. There are hands that are way more difficult in these situations imo.

      Only alternative for me is the open shove, although I think that we lose a lot of EV with it.

      All other options are way too weak imo. They only make sense against tighter players who won't steal light. In these cases raise/fold is the best option.

      Feel free to add further szenario's though. Maybe we can discuss them one by one :)
      And as always: if you have any further questions feel free to ask.

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • TinoLaan
      TinoLaan
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2011 Posts: 6,411
      Thanks for the great answers guys! :f_thumbsup:

      Maybe 44 wasn't the best example, because it generally has a lot of equity.

      Now let's say you have a hand like JTs though. Now what do you do? With JTs you might sometimes even be ahead against their shoves with random hands like 76s or whatever, but you're not going to be happily calling off. You don't want to fold, whether it's an open fold or raise/fold because you have a lot of equity. And open shoving is also not great, like you already mentioned, because you're just risking so much.

      I'm finding myself raise/folding in these kind of spots very often, and I think it makes me lose chips in the long run. That's the reason I'm in doubt as to what's the best play here.

      If I find any other such scenarios, I'll be sure to add them ;)
    • Acespeci
      Acespeci
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2012 Posts: 340
      I would add other variables to my decision making process such as if I have average chipstack and if I play tight I will still be in the the money. Which mean that you are very deep.

      Its not just effective chipstack


      If you have a comfortable standing in the tournament no need to steal very loose (44) especially when SB and BB is suppose to be in restealing mode.

      Raise but with a decent range


      If they have 10BB it would be push/fold on button for you. Maybe limp to steal on the flop if your creative.



      when the bubble burst you can steal all you want
      Probably any two
    • Wohmfg
      Wohmfg
      Silver
      Joined: 12.11.2009 Posts: 500
      Hmm, if I am above average and deep then I am more likely to steal as I can accumulate a lot of chips without much risk to myself.

      I don't like the idea of playing tight to get into the money, especially in MTTs.

      And the bubble play depends on who is aware of the bubble and is playing risk averse. I am more likely to steal looser on the bubble vs players who have some understanding of risk aversion (which is a lot of players) and shove tighter into the players who don't adjust their calling ranges much due to bubble.

      And Tino, raise fold JT and a bunch of other hands is fine as long as you aren't being exploited. It just feels awful when your steal doesn't get through 4 times in a row and seems like they are playing back at you, which they rarely are.
    • Acespeci
      Acespeci
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2012 Posts: 340
      Originally posted by Wohmfg
      Hmm, if I am above average and deep then I am more likely to steal as I can accumulate a lot of chips without much risk to myself.

      I don't like the idea of playing tight to get into the money, especially in MTTs.

      I didnt say he suppose to play tight to be in the money. Its just an indication of how deep he is.


      When your above average chipstack yes you are more likely to steal but not very loosely if you know SB/BB is aggressive.
    • Wohmfg
      Wohmfg
      Silver
      Joined: 12.11.2009 Posts: 500
      Ah ok. :)

      So what difference would it make if you are making a deep run in a tourney and have an average chip stack? I think it's best to be in chip accumulation mode unless there are bubble factors.