[NL2-NL10] NL25 AQo Shove or C-bet

    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Known players:
      Position:
      Stack
      SB:
      $4,75
      BB:
      $25,00
      UTG:
      $4,25
      UTG+1:
      $24,14
      UTG+2:
      $9,65
      MP1:
      $6,91
      Hero:
      $4,90
      MP3:
      $10,76
      CO:
      $6,99
      BU:
      $25,23

      0,1/0,25 No-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.60 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A:diamond: , Q:heart:
      4 folds, Hero raises to $1,00, MP3 calls $1,00, 4 folds.

      Flop: ($2,35) 6:heart: , K:diamond: , 4:club: (2 players)
      Hero bets $1,75, MP3 folds.

      Final Pot: $4,10

      Shove or C-bet OOP?
      $1.75 // $3.9 = 44% of my stack postflop I am betting with it.

      But with only 1 overcard considering, should I shove it or just c-bet following up with a c/f on the turn?
  • 9 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      I would have done the same on the flop and after the turn I would just check/fold.
    • 098799
      098799
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2007 Posts: 1,245
      Why shoving? You have almost full stack and raised the minimum (4bb). If it's shoving case, we would advice to shove any flop and not only cbet 2/3.

      Cbet 2/3 flop and check/fold later streets ofc.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by 098799
      Why shoving? You have almost full stack and raised the minimum (4bb). If it's shoving case, we would advice to shove any flop and not only cbet 2/3.
      Since I am OOP thus if I bet 40% of my stack, I would go all-in. since 2/3 of 2.35$ is like 40% of my stack, wouldnt that be an All-in?
      I had a private discussion with Leo about being OOP postflop. He argues that even a bet of 33%+ of your stack, you had to go all-in OOP
    • 098799
      098799
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2007 Posts: 1,245
      Can you explain how you calculated this 40 or 33% thingie? I think I've never heard of it before. Let me learn something as well :) .

      And btw, answer to my question: Do we need to bet/call every flop if we are oop? Because if we bet minimum preflop and minimum on the flop and you say it's bet/callable with a-high, than you need to bet/call every time. That would be stupid imho.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by 098799
      Can you explain how you calculated this 40 or 33% thingie? I think I've never heard of it before. Let me learn something as well :) .
      Ok watch this post as soon as I talked to Leo about it

      But from my POV about this 33% issue is due the fact that
      1] We are OOP
      2] Villain tend to call IP so we go to the Turn Pot committed
      3] Max. Value./Fold Equity

      I tend to do it 40% because the risk margin is lower than if you would push it.

      Leo's Argument:
      ''If Im OOP Postflop, I will push with every hand I raised preflop with IF I have to bet 1/3 of my remaining stack. This is to create as much Fold Equity as well as Max Value.

      Betting on the Flop + 2nd barrel is also fine but doesnt create good fold equity so your less screwed if you only have 2 overcards
      .
    • 098799
      098799
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2007 Posts: 1,245
      Ok, now I understand, but I don't agree. I didn't found out people to be more loose if they are ip. I prefer standard play.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by 098799
      I didn't found out people to be more loose if they are ip. I prefer standard play.
      Could you explain or clarify me why C-betting and then 2nd barrel with like less FE on the Turn with just 2 overcards is your preferred style of play?

      Especially when you are out of position.

      I think this is quite an interesting discussion however the board in this case contains a King so there is only 1 overcard.

      But what if the board came 2 8 T rainbow and you have AQo, then I would definitly push on the Flop with 2 cards remaining or would you just c-bet/barrel push?

      Thanks,
      - Gerv
    • greyboy
      greyboy
      Black
      Joined: 19.07.2006 Posts: 3,052
      Originally posted by 098799
      I didn't found out people to be more loose if they are ip. I prefer standard play.
      Could you explain or clarify me why C-betting and then 2nd barrel with like less FE on the Turn with just 2 overcards is your preferred style of play?

      You do not have to 2nd barrel,
      even when you _feel_ commited, there are spots, where a fold is better,
      because the range of villain might be onlye TopPair, against wich we only got 3outs from turn to river.



      Especially when you are out of position.

      I do not really see what changes if we play OOP,
      because Villain will fold or call the same Hands IP wich he would have called/folded OOP.
      There are not many players who call you on the flop with air,
      just with the intention to bluff you out on the turn if you check.
      It is simply not profitable for our Opponents.

      Postion play is not included in the play of our opponents on these limits.




      But what if the board came 2 8 T rainbow and you have AQo, then I would definitly push on the Flop with 2 cards remaining or would you just c-bet/barrel push?

      I would bet cbet the flop and consider on the turn, wether to push or to fold.
      Pushing the flop is not that profitable, it just makes the play easier.
      It is a myth that a push creates much more FoldEquity than a contibet.

      By default I would suggest to cbet/call the 2 8 T rainbow board, an bluff shove the turn if a K arrives or a J. Because you got 4 more gutshot straight outs, and it's a perfect bluff card with much fold equity.



      I hope I could help you,Gerv :)
      By the way: It sounds like you push and 2nd barrel to often ^^
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678

      By the way: It sounds like you push and 2nd barrel to often ^^

      Nope, My AF is 6.4 and I base my Turn play on the depending Turncard.

      however I found this situation a huge debate whether to go for it (easier) or continuation bet.

      I just found it difficult because your out of position(=Iniative)

      ;)