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[NL2-NL10] vbet R

    • yaxkukmian
      yaxkukmian
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.12.2007 Posts: 2,020
      2 hands 100/50

      IPoker, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $13 (130 bb)
      BB: $17.32 (173.2 bb)
      MP: $10.45 (104.5 bb)
      CO: $10.25 (102.5 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $10 (100 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with A T
      MP raises to $0.30, CO folds, Hero raises to $0.90, 2 folds, MP calls $0.60

      Flop: ($1.95) 8 T 2 (2 players)
      MP checks, Hero bets $1.15, MP calls $1.15

      Turn: ($4.25) 7 (2 players)
      MP checks, Hero bets $2.33, MP calls $2.33

      River: ($8.91) Q (2 players)
      MP checks, Hero checks

      Results:
      $8.91 pot ($0.59 rake)
      Final Board: 8 T 2 7 Q
      MP showed 4 4 and lost (-$4.38 net)
      Hero mucked A T and won $8.32 ($3.94 net)


      Since it's 3b pot I chose to bet smaller amounts.

      Do you think I should bet more on F and T? I was afraid of JJ/QQ. Also he could have 88/99. This is top of his range but since he's unknown I chose more more conservative line.

      Since he just smooth called 2 streets it seems he has some draw. Can we vbet small on this R? We can beat JT, KT but there are lots of hands that we vbet ourselves.
  • 11 replies
    • kymupa
      kymupa
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2009 Posts: 22,364
      Hello,

      I think betting turn is a bit borderline since I don't really expect unknown villains to be calling 3bets in such spots with KT/QT/JT often, so if I bet I would go for something like $2 and check back any river.

      I think checking back the river is fine.

      Best,
      Plamen
    • adasko99
      adasko99
      Gold
      Joined: 13.02.2011 Posts: 2,203
      I think this hand is a bit too strong to 3Bet preflop (I might be wrong tho)
      Is not a pure value hand that you would comfortably stackoff preflop vs MP 4bet/6bet or whatever right?
      You would have to pass it.
      That's why i think just calling and seeing a Flop is a bit better with this kind of strong but not valuable only preflop hand

      everything else looks solid :)
      there is no point betting more on that FLOP i think
      maybe on the Turn you could have bet more, cuz 7:club: is not a scary card , so if he called T high FLOP - he is most likely calling a bit bigger bet on 7:club: Turn
      River - nice :f_thumbsup:
    • yaxkukmian
      yaxkukmian
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.12.2007 Posts: 2,020
      Originally posted by adasko99
      I think this hand is a bit too strong to 3Bet preflop (I might be wrong tho)
      Is not a pure value hand that you would comfortably stackoff preflop vs MP 4bet/6bet or whatever right?
      You would have to pass it.
      That's why i think just calling and seeing a Flop is a bit better with this kind of strong but not valuable only preflop hand
      Disagree with you. Although we're IP our hand doesn't hit that good and we mostly fold F and even if we float our hand can't improve that much.

      So I prefer 3b and of course not 5b or call 4b. It's kind of 3b bluff hand. We can represent much and also hit sth postflop...better to play with initiative.

      Tnx for your time :D
    • adasko99
      adasko99
      Gold
      Joined: 13.02.2011 Posts: 2,203
      no probs :P
      yup you might be very right :)
      in my personal opinion, 3bet bluff hands are hands like:
      K9o , QJo , 98s , A5s etc :)
      and on the other side, I'm mostly calling to see the flop with:
      KTo , QJs , JTo, A9s etc :)
    • yaxkukmian
      yaxkukmian
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.12.2007 Posts: 2,020
      Originally posted by adasko99
      no probs :P
      yup you might be very right :)
      in my personal opinion, 3bet bluff hands are hands like:
      K9o , QJo , 98s , A5s etc :)
      Don't use too many offsuited hands. Use something like KJs, KTs, A5s-A2s, AJs, ATs. Depends on the villain but mostly use hands with blockers. Suited connectors better play in multiway pots so it's easier to play them IP and just call.

      Originally posted by adasko99and on the other side, I'm mostly calling to see the flop with:
      KTo , QJs , JTo, A9s etc :)
      Again, offsuited hands are not that good. Especially without initiative two gappers like KTo are really hard to play. Also JTo is dominated and plays harder than we may think. A9s is dominated much of the time, no potential to hit straight and when we hit A we can't call 3 streets and expect to be good.

      In general, call rather with value hands and 3b with blockers.
      Hands like JTo, KTo, QJo, K9o, QTo are better just to fold when facing openraiser.
    • adasko99
      adasko99
      Gold
      Joined: 13.02.2011 Posts: 2,203
      I disagree :)
      I never turn superstrong hands like AJs into a preflop 3bet bluffs vs MP raise (maybe only if players on blinds like to Call Open too much :) )
      I'm aware that offstuited gap connectors are not that good. The thing is that they don't have to be.
      You need to polarize your 3betting range quite a bit - too keep them guessing pre and post flop.

      It would be cool to hear from a Judge on this matter :)
    • kymupa
      kymupa
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2009 Posts: 22,364
      Hey,

      I would have to disagree that AJs is a super strong hand against an unknown opponent who opens from MP.

      With this hand we are dominated and we would have a hard time playing those hands postflop and we may get into such spots that are going to lose us a lot of money.

      I do agree however, that you can play them profitably if you are good enough postflop, but as this is the beginners forum I would advice most of the players to just 3bet them.

      Now the 3betting range - it should be consisting hands for value and as a bluff - those for bluff doesn't necessarily need to be hands like K9/KT - they could be KJ/KQ if we don't call those, but of course if we are calling with these then we should bluff with K9/KT.

      I think you got my point here and I am looking forward to hear your thoughts.
    • adasko99
      adasko99
      Gold
      Joined: 13.02.2011 Posts: 2,203
      thanks for your reply :)

      Now the 3betting range - it should be consisting hands for value and as a bluff - those for bluff doesn't necessarily need to be hands like K9/KT - they could be KJ/KQ if we don't call those, but of course if we are calling with these then we should bluff with K9/KT.

      That's exactly what I meant. I'm always just calling IP with KQ, KJ, KTs vs unknowns - that's why my 3bet bluffing range starts from K9s / KTo
      Are there ever any good spots to 3bet IP with KQ vs unknown MP raiser? If yes - what are they? and what are the deciding factors in those? :)

      About AJs:
      I still can not understand it :f_ugly:
      If MP Raiser 4bets , I have to pass my AJs right? - so why 3bet? that is turning good hand into a bluff - I would rather see the flop and go from there.

      Could you also please give examples when we can loose a lot of money playing AJs postflop IP?

      I can only see it kind of happening when playing vs AK and AQ.
      Even then, if board is A high - if we just call behind or check behind for pot control - we should not loose that much really.
      Many times we will have the best hand as well I think.
      AJs vs 22+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,T9s,AJo+,KQo has 46.62% preflop equity - not that dominated afterall imo :P

      I appreciate your will to discuss/explain - thanks :f_thumbsup:
    • redrawstump
      redrawstump
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.05.2012 Posts: 244
      Hey,
      You're right that a 4bet sucks and you have to fold but one if the ideas behind a 3bet is to get worse hands to call. It gives villain the opportunity to make a mistake by calling our 3bet with a weaker range. If you know for sure that villain only 4bets or folds then you're right and the 3bet makes no sense but IMO many players will call 3bets wide with Pps etc (even 65o as I came across today). And examples of bad flops J34 when villain called yr 3bet with QQ, A22 when villain called with AQ. These are just my thoughts though and in advice terms not represent the nuts :)
    • adasko99
      adasko99
      Gold
      Joined: 13.02.2011 Posts: 2,203
      one if the ideas behind a 3bet is to get worse hands to call

      oh yeah, i forgot about that :P
      i get it a bit better now :)
    • kymupa
      kymupa
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.10.2009 Posts: 22,364
      Hello,

      Sorry for the late post but I was on a little vacation yesterday so I couldn't answer here.

      There are good spots to 3bet with KQ against unknown (and I prefer 3betting it) because we can't really call, since our hand is dominated and it is fine to 3bet with, because we have blockers.
      Although we have decent equity against his range, the hand doesn't really play so well postflop, as we don't really get three streets of value from lets say 99 on Qxx board, QJ is probably shutting on the river and we are left against his very top range.

      About the AJ hand - the fact that we are folding it against a 4bet doesn't necessarily mean that we are turning it into a bluff - we could get called by worse and pick up the pot postflop and stacking off with it preflop is usually going to result in us losing money.