Please help with non SD winnings

    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Alright people, brainstorming time. Please look into your databases too and compare, we could spot some leaks. Everyone's advice most welcome.

      Problem is my non sd winnings. I've been playing poker long enough to not have such a graph :D

      Lets start from some basic filters and then go deeper as needed.



      When I filter for VPIP=True and Saw SD=False then I get this. Winning at 15.59 bb/100



      Is this win rate enough to make up for losses in other place, do you guys have similar figures?

      Now VPIP=No and SD=No. Losing at 23.36 bb/100 . Losing too much? Could my non sd winnings solution be as simple as defending blinds more aggressively?



      Please ask for any other stats and graphs that you feel need to look into to go deeper, I'll post everything asap.

      EDIT: BTW in first graph, wr is 5.19 bb/100 even though it looks so flat.
  • 14 replies
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      I think I shoulda posted in NL section, can mods please shift it.
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Some stats.





      My W$WSF is quite low hence bad red line. So could be making some post flop errors too.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Open wider on EP, CO , BU and SB and fold less in the BB. 3Bet way more, 4% is super nitty go at least 8-12% range,. Cbet more on the flop, turn and rivr are fine. 4bet something other then QQ+ and AK, get it up to 4-5%.

      Basically stop being such a nit. Your pretty much expected to have this sort of redline playing 21/15/4. If you want to get to breakevenish range get it up to something like 26/21/9.

      Not sure why you care tho since our winrate seems fine.
    • ThatGuyMatt
      ThatGuyMatt
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2010 Posts: 3,758
      Originally posted by maheepsangari
      I think I shoulda posted in NL section, can mods please shift it.
      Done! :)
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Open wider on EP, CO , BU and SB and fold less in the BB. 3Bet way more, 4% is super nitty go at least 8-12% range,. Cbet more on the flop, turn and rivr are fine. 4bet something other then QQ+ and AK, get it up to 4-5%.

      Basically stop being such a nit. Your pretty much expected to have this sort of redline playing 21/15/4. If you want to get to breakevenish range get it up to something like 26/21/9.

      Not sure why you care tho since our winrate seems fine.
      So in your opinion its more of a pre flop leak than a post flop leak? All this while I was trying to change things in my post flop play.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      I actually don't think its a leak at all since your winrate is fine. But in terms of showdown winnings going down, yes most definitely.

      Lets say you opening your BU 37% now(this is really low, optimal should be around 50-60%) and now for the sake of argument lets say you start opening the BU 100% of the time.

      Now what happens is your stealing the blinds way more often hence your NSD winnings go up. But there's a problem. Since you now have crappy hands like 23o in your range it will be a lot harder to win at showdown, so your showdown winnings will go down. Its impossible to raise your NSDW without it effecting your SDW.

      Same goes for 3betting. If you just 3bet a lot and then barrel off all the time you will a bunch of midsized pots when they fold, but you will also lose a bunch of big ones when your river jam gets called.

      Its all about ballance.

      That being said, i think there definitly are spots where you can expand your range and play more agressivly. Your style is kinda nitty for todays games at nl100+, imo you should aim to play at least 24/20/8 type of game if you want to move up.

      You can also just decide to never ever fold anything ever and you will never lose at NSD again. Will do wonders for your winrate as well :)
    • staktas
      staktas
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2011 Posts: 1,346
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Now what happens is your stealing the blinds way more often hence your NSD winnings go up. But there's a problem. Since you now have crappy hands like 23o in your range it will be a lot harder to win at showdown, so your showdown winnings will go down. Its impossible to raise your NSDW without it effecting your SDW.

      I'm stealing from btn about 50-60. But my non-sd winings still sucks. That's what happens: with all these crappy hands, most of the time, i cant even get to the showdon, thus my non-sd winnings hurts even more. My f cb is abou 65, t cbet abiout 50.
    • Gizillioner
      Gizillioner
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2013 Posts: 16
      Valuebet more thinly against fish and ur redline will improve alot. But dont valuebet thinly against nits and regs.
    • Gizillioner
      Gizillioner
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2013 Posts: 16
      Example is if u raise A2o on button and get called by fish in BB and board comes AK683, u can go for value on every street. But if its a reg or nit, u should bet maximum 2 streets.
    • OZSA
      OZSA
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2009 Posts: 804
      your nonsd doesnt matter at micros, once you will start stealing 100% and tripple barrel often for nonsd, you will start to lose actual money. so you have to decide if its money or your nonsd ego is more important. those big nonsd graphs you see they make by betting hands that you rather check/fold because you know you're beat (and you actually are beat most of the time) but they hope for a fold or call by 2nd pair kinda hands. nonsd won't be important for you, even at nl50.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by maheepsangari
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Open wider on EP, CO , BU and SB and fold less in the BB. 3Bet way more, 4% is super nitty go at least 8-12% range,. Cbet more on the flop, turn and rivr are fine. 4bet something other then QQ+ and AK, get it up to 4-5%.

      Basically stop being such a nit. Your pretty much expected to have this sort of redline playing 21/15/4. If you want to get to breakevenish range get it up to something like 26/21/9.

      Not sure why you care tho since our winrate seems fine.
      So in your opinion its more of a pre flop leak than a post flop leak? All this while I was trying to change things in my post flop play.
      You gotta have some big post flop leak too I'd day. Your W$WSF is very low so you prob play pretty weak-tight postflop.

      Not saying to go all tripple barrel monkey or anything, but try keeping an eye on smaller pots maybe, where no one seems to have a desire to take it down and try to stab more imo. Until NL100 people tend to play very straightforward in small or multiway pots and there's a lot of opportunity to profit ATC.

      Flop fold to cbet is quite high, your opponent would profit cbetting ATC vs you if your f2cb is this high when you're in HU pots. (look up how much you're folding HU)

      Your preflop is on a nitty side, so I'd think it makes your cbet way too low too.

      3bet is very low too.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by staktas
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Now what happens is your stealing the blinds way more often hence your NSD winnings go up. But there's a problem. Since you now have crappy hands like 23o in your range it will be a lot harder to win at showdown, so your showdown winnings will go down. Its impossible to raise your NSDW without it effecting your SDW.

      I'm stealing from btn about 50-60. But my non-sd winings still sucks. That's what happens: with all these crappy hands, most of the time, i cant even get to the showdon, thus my non-sd winnings hurts even more. My f cb is abou 65, t cbet abiout 50.
      Bleh, I don't necessarily agree that you have to be stealing 60%, against lots of tougher opponents I open tighter and don't see a problem. (against others I may be opening atc) If blinds aren't folding to steal much and make your life hell postflop no need to get involved with tons of junk.
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS

      Flop fold to cbet is quite high, your opponent would profit cbetting ATC vs you if your f2cb is this high when you're in HU pots. (look up how much you're folding HU)


      It only improves a little, 48.2%.

      W$SD however is on the high side. So I am being very picky and giving up a lot many times unless I'm strong. Clearly missing some small spots where I could take the pot away.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      WTSD is very low too, so yeah, you seem to be giving up too much. Maybe try constructing yourself a tighter flatting range and add the part you cut out to your 3betting range?

      Until you improve in this spot.

      And you can always just write down some common scenarios and try to make up a range of defending in different types of boards.

      So make yourself a flatting range, pick a random board, decide what to defend and how.

      For example BU vs MP, board comes K42r, think which parts of your range you will call, raise and fold, then see how much are you folding and decide if you could add some hands into raising or calling range. Then turn comes T bringing in a flush draw too, what now? Etc, etc.

      Some boards you won't be able to come up with enough hands to be profitably defending, but on others you'll be defending more so it evens out.