[NL2-NL10] Nl2 AQ

    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      UTG+1: $2.96 (148 bb) UTG's stats: 52/16/12,5/31 AF: 1,6
      UTG+2: $4.81 (240.5 bb)
      MP1: $1.27 (63.5 bb)
      Hero (MP2): $4.60 (230 bb) 14/9/3.0/4k
      MP3: $4.95 (247.5 bb)
      CO: $2.02 (101 bb)
      BTN: $5.32 (266 bb)
      SB: $1.15 (57.5 bb)
      BB: $5 (250 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q A
      UTG+1 calls $0.02, UTG+2 calls $0.02, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $0.10, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.08, UTG+2 calls $0.08

      Flop: ($0.33) 7 7 J (3 players)
      UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $0.24, UTG+1 calls $0.24, UTG+2 folds

      Turn: ($0.81) 6 (2 players)
      UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $0.38, UTG+1 raises to $1.14, Hero folds

      Results:
      $1.57 pot ($0.05 rake)
      Final Board: 7 7 J 6
      UTG+1 mucked and won $1.52 ($0.80 net)
      Hero mucked Q A and lost (-$0.72 net)


      I know betting less than half the pot looks weak and i agree that i made a mistake there.

      I am currently reading mbml's book and learning about the reasons for betting and raising. I'm pretty new to equilab and i'm experimenting a little with that too.

      So what i want from you is that if you can confirm if my calculations in equilab is right.

      I put his flop callingrange on this: 99-22,A7s-A2s,KTs-K7s,QJs,A7o-A2o,KJo-KTo

      And if i evaluate the hand in equilab i am a favorite. And according to my calculations, i should be betting here profitably, right?
  • 44 replies
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,717
      Hi.

      I think you are definitely misunderstanding some important concepts.

      About the Flop calling range
      It seems that you are assigning the same Flop calling range to different situations. This is definitely not going to be true. It depends on the opponent, board texture, preflop range, starting positions, number of opponents in the hand etc.

      Let's talk about a few things first.

      1. Your Flop bet here is a bluff, not a value bet
      We want villain to fold. if you get called here, I think the minimum hand which your opponents would have is a middle pocket pair like 88/99/TT. But they'll usually have some sort of 7X/JX hand. Against such a strong calling range, if you do get called, you are definitely going to be an underdog.

      2. Flop bet size: I think 20 cents should suffice

      3. Turn: I don't think you should be betting the Turn when the board doesn't change in any significant way

      Please ask more questions here - From this post and your previous questions I feel like you are getting a little confused here about some of these concepts. Forget about equilab for now and focus on understanding this concept first, then we can use them after you get it right.
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      Hi. I think you are definitely misunderstanding some important concepts. About the Flop calling range It seems that you are assigning the same Flop calling range to different situations. This is definitely not going to be true. It depends on the opponent, board texture, preflop range, starting positions, number of opponents in the hand etc.


      Yes i really really struggle with putting people on ranges because of many things. The reason i added the K high, A high in his callingrange is because i've experienced ALOT that betting on dry boards is just not profitable for me. It doesn't work most of the time and i suspect that as people get better because of trainingsites, they learn to bet on dry boards and they learn that dry boards is easy to bluff on, therefore i think beginners call because they think everyone is bluffing on dry boards. This is my thoughts and please correct me if i'm wrong.

      I struggle a bit with adjusting to my opponents too and although HM2 is providing lots of information, i don't know really how to take advantage of it. It's pretty frustrating, I want to learn so bad but i don't know where to start or how to get better. And it's hard to remain focus in a session when i don't know how to use it too.

      3. Turn: I don't think you should be betting the Turn when the board doesn't change in any significant way


      What turn card should make me keep betting? The only cards i can think of is an A, Q or maybe a J since it makes i less unlikely that he has it? But then again 88+ beats me so i really don't know.

      Please ask more questions here - From this post and your previous questions I feel like you are getting a little confused here about some of these concepts. Forget about equilab for now and focus on understanding this concept first, then we can use them after you get it right.


      I couldn't agree more.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,717
      People not folding on dry boards: Maybe they may call Ace high sometimes, but usually if the dry flop contains one high card like Q62r, they would usually fold undercards like JT or 89s. Sometimes they may float some AT type of hands but usually people fold worse than Ace high here. Bluffing is still going to be profitable.

      Q/A Turn cards wouldn't be bluffs, would they? You would then improve to top pair and you would be value betting.

      K/T turn cards are great for folding out hands like 88/99/Ace high and you do improve with a turned gutshot, having 4 outs to improve to a straight.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,717
      About Statistics: Let me recommend you some basic stats I use

      VPIP/PFR/Attempt to Steal/WTSD
      3bet/Fold to 3bet/Flop Cbet/Fold To Flop Cbet/Turn Cbet/Fold to Turn Cbet

      I feel like these are the most fundamental stats to have. I use popups for everything else, but these stats are useful for the most common Preflop and Flop situations.
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      Q/A Turn cards wouldn't be bluffs, would they? You would then improve to top pair and you would be value betting.

      When did i say i bet as a bluff? When i asked what turn card should have made me continue betting, i ment that the only thing i could have thought of was A, Q (which would have bee a valuebet) or a J (which would have been a bluff).

      About Statistics: Let me recommend you some basic stats I use VPIP/PFR/Attempt to Steal/WTSD 3bet/Fold to 3bet/Flop Cbet/Fold To Flop Cbet/Turn Cbet/Fold to Turn Cbet


      I can't find something that is called literally "attempt to steal". Is it TOT Steal you mean and what does RFI means? WTSD 3bet? I guess you mean to add "/" between those words? If i add 3bet, it pop ups fold to 3bet too when you holding your mouse over the stat so why should i add that? Is it because it's esier to just have it there since you probably look at it very often? What is the difference between fold to cbet and fold to flop cbet?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,717
      raise first in = how often someone is opening. i use it to see how wide someone is opening from a particular position

      attempt to steal = TOT steal, same thing

      about whether you want to use stats or popups: entirely up to you. many people have a very detailed hud, whereas someone like myself prefers to rely more on popups. I only have around 10 stats and many people have like 30 stats on their hud.

      hmm fold to cbet and fold to flop cbet? I'm not sure if there's a difference. fold to cbet could very well refer to all streets or maybe it's just the flop, whereas flop cbet is very specifically referring to the flop.
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      Alright. Moving on to the concept i've misunderstood, the reasons for betting. You said i should forget equilab for now and i agree to that. So how can fully understand your concept. Isn't it my estimation of ranges that is my main problem? I have a suggestion. Why can't you give me some homework of examples of pokerhands, then i estimate ranges of your examples and then you can tell me if my estimations where good or bad=) ?
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      or we can do something else if you have a better idea=)
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,717
      in order to value bet, you need to be a favourite vs villain's calling range. Equilab helps you see whether you are a favourite or not (in mathematical terms, this is defined as having >50% equity vs the range).

      I guess you understand this? The thing is that your range is really far off from people's actual calling ranges. For example, you put all pocket pairs in people's calling ranges even on boards with 2 high cards.

      KJ5 - What's your calling range here? Surely you wouldn't call here with a hand like 88?
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      in order to value bet, you need to be a favourite vs villain's calling range. Equilab helps you see whether you are a favourite or not (in mathematical terms, this is defined as having >50% equity vs the range). I guess you understand this?

      Yes i undestand that i at least need to have 50% equity against his callingrange in order to valuebet yes=)

      The thing is that your range is really far off from people's actual calling ranges. For example, you put all pocket pairs in people's calling ranges even on boards with 2 high cards.

      I don't quite understand what you mean here. Do you mean that i add pocket dueces in their callingrange when the board is like KQ7?

      KJ5 - What's your calling range here? Surely you wouldn't call here with a hand like 88?

      Most of the time no. But it's not a clear fold to me either because i don't understand yet why it's a bad call. And i'm thinking alot (if he opened in late position) He may just have a SC or some Ax hand. Anyways here's my callingrange: KK+,JJ,55,AKs,AJs,K8s+,QTs+,J8s+,AKo,AJo,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,717
      you must filter down ranges based on preflop action too.

      So usually if you are the preflop caller and did not 3-bet preflop, you cannot have KK and AA here. You probably 3bet JJ and AK in late positions too. But if let's say UTG opens and you call in BU, then maybe JJ and AK is in your range cos you may not 3-bet these hands vs a tight UTG opener.

      Maybe my question wasn't more specific, I did not mention starting positions. Let's try a few other situations.

      continuation range = raise or call, as long as you don't fold

      1. UTG opens 3BB, you call in BU. Flop comes down AQ8. What's your continuation range here?
      2. SB opens 3BB, you call in BB. Flop comes AQ8. What's your continuation range here?
      3. CO opens 3BB, you call in BU. Flop comes 987 with 2 spades. What's your continuation range here?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,717
      Originally posted by hvard92

      The thing is that your range is really far off from people's actual calling ranges. For example, you put all pocket pairs in people's calling ranges even on boards with 2 high cards.

      I don't quite understand what you mean here. Do you mean that i add pocket dueces in their callingrange when the board is like KQ7?

      yes. And that's not a realistic assumption. Of course if villain calls any pocket pair here, then you have a super easy value bet with a hand like QJ. But that's not the case in reality.
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      1. UTG opens 3BB, you call in BU. Flop comes down AQ8. What's your continuation range here?
      2. SB opens 3BB, you call in BB. Flop comes AQ8. What's your continuation range here?
      3. CO opens 3BB, you call in BU. Flop comes 987 with 2 spades. What's your continuation range here?


      It depends on the type of player i'm playing against but let's say this player in all examples where a tight player then.

      1. 88,AKs,AKo
      2. 88
      3. TT-77

      All other hands i could have played, i would have reraised the hand before the flop or folded on the flop. But since all examples is just call, this is actually the only hands i would have continued with if he was tight. It's interesting to see how much i can narrow a range that much, cool!
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,717
      the range you described is way too tight.

      define your preflop calling ranges first for each of the 3 situations. You mean you don't have AQ/AJs in 1? You don't have A2+ in 2? QJ/QT/KQ?
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      You mean you don't have AQ/AJs in 1? You don't have A2+ in 2? QJ/QT/KQ?


      Yes, that's correct. It's not too long ago i stop using the startinghandschart in the NL Beginners course. And i'm not comfortable to play such hands you mentioned either. I think i'm way too scared to be dominated and sometimes even against loose agressive players too.

      My preflop callingranges on the 3 examples:

      1. JJ-22,AKs,AKo
      2. 99-22
      3. TT-22,AQs,AQo
    • Superbrain
      Superbrain
      Basic
      Joined: 29.06.2013 Posts: 167
      play your strong hand as weak and vice versa... create an illusion in order to deceive other players, then imitate their response to read their hands. it works for me :)
    • divvie
      divvie
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.08.2010 Posts: 3,293
      If u fold those hands ur playing way too tight and losing so much potential money because people can profitable cbet any2 against you because you fold so much. + You get really exploitable, because you only continue to the turn with really strong hands/nuts. People will never continue playing against you on the turn except if they have the nuts themselves. Really hard to get value then from your strong hands. My guess is that your ftcbet flop is massive.
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      If u fold those hands ur playing way too tight and losing so much potential money because people can profitable cbet any2 against you because you fold so much. + You get really exploitable, because you only continue to the turn with really strong hands/nuts. People will never continue playing against you on the turn except if they have the nuts themselves. Really hard to get value then from your strong hands. My guess is that your ftcbet flop is massive.


      I already know all this but i don't know where to start. I was a bigger fish before. I was a bad LAG. I realized a couple of months ago i had to change my style, so i started all over again. And now, i'm gradually play more hands as i get comfortable with it.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,717
      well now you are playing like a rock - And a rock loses money slowly but surely.

      Try to rework your preflop game once more - Think about what hands you can call and 3-bet in each position.