Constructing bluff 3bet vs UTG and MP from blinds NL25

    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,070
      Hey,

      can you point a guide lines or some information source about bluffing from these positions.

      I was bluffing some day in BB I guess vs MP open w A4s, but coach said its bad, without info about oponent.

      But the other day I hear its good to 3bet or squeze SCs or suited aces vs UTG in BB, the reason is - this bluff looks strong.

      So bit unsure. I want to use this advantage that it looks strong and plus have oportuninty to flop flush when they call with QQ and have overpair.

      I am talking about unknowns. With info this can be adjusted.
  • 15 replies
    • mkjmkjmkj
      mkjmkjmkj
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 159
      i dont 3bet bluff vs unknkown utg

      i do squeeze because you are getting a good price on your bluff because there is more money in the pot and the cold callers range is often capped so he is likely to fold.

      so you dont need utg to fold as much as if it was just a normal 3bet
    • Saren113
      Saren113
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2009 Posts: 2,867
      I think the main reason is that you want hands that got playability when called.

      I rather 3b with weak holdings when I got the positional advantage, but I think that hand it self plays to poorly postflop!
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Him being an unknown is an info in itself. If your a reg and his unknown its safe to asume his going to be a fish 90% of the time.

      And why would you want to bluff a fish OOP?
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,070
      Him being an unknown is an info in itself. If your a reg and his unknown its safe to asume his going to be a fish 90% of the time. And why would you want to bluff a fish OOP?


      Until you know them - in zoom. Still there is big part of regs.

      Ok, then another thing - if I assume UTG or MP is a reg - then how would you construct the range?
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      When constructing a gameplan, look at the frequencies.

      Which hands do you wanna 3bet for value? Normally in those positions only KK+. And it's even best to flat some combos of those for range protection. A good rule is that when 3betting:
      TotalRange = ValueRange*2.41 (in combos)
      BluffRange = TotalRange-ValueRange (in combos)

      When you've decided howmany combos you want to be value3Betting with, you can see howmuch you could and should bluff vs unknown or balanced, good opponents.

      Good hands to bluff vs UTG are obv hands with blockers. I prefer AJo and maybe a hand like A5s (blocker + playability when called). So you'll see you can't bluff too much because of your thin valuerange.

      When you see people are opening too wide UTG (17%+) and folding too much to 3bets (65%+) you can adjust by widening your 3betrange and maybe 3betbluff all KQo/ATs combos and A2s-A5s
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c
      Him being an unknown is an info in itself. If your a reg and his unknown its safe to asume his going to be a fish 90% of the time. And why would you want to bluff a fish OOP?


      Until you know them - in zoom. Still there is big part of regs.

      Ok, then another thing - if I assume UTG or MP is a reg - then how would you construct the range?
      What does it matter if its zoom? If your a reg and play around same times everyday your going to get info on other regs really even faster then on normal tables. So now that you've been playing for a week or two on the limit you should have pretty much every reg color coded. And the ones that you see for the first time after grinding 100 hours on your limit there is a 90% likelyhood that they're fishy.

      If you yourself are new to the limit then you can just play a bit tight until you get some info.

      One you have your info your bluff range depends on your value range from GTO perspective. And your value range depends on his opening range. If his opening 10% UTG then you can't 3bet AQ for value, if his opening 60% on the BU then AQ is an easy 3bet for value.

      Other then that you can be a lot more imballanced to maximize your EV by bluffing more vs ppl that fold to much and bluffing less vs ppl that don't fold.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,070
      What does it matter if its zoom? If your a reg and play around same times everyday your going to get info on other regs really even faster then on normal tables. So now that you've been playing for a week or two on the limit you should have pretty much every reg color coded. And the ones that you see for the first time after grinding 100 hours on your limit there is a 90% likelyhood that they're fishy.


      100 hours - thats bit of time :) I play about 1 hour monday- friday, and about 5 hours on saturday-sunday if I am at home, so to collect 100 hours takes time :)

      plus I play not only stars, I play unibet from time to time.

      But otherwise - thanks for info :) will need to try to construct also using this formula
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      Here's my 3b range v UTG from blinds.

      3b

      SB: KK+, AQo, KQs
      BB: KK+, KQo, AJs,

      So, 6 value combos, and 16 bluff combos.
      If you are 3betting A4s, then you are probably 3bet bluffing too many combos? What else are you 3betting?

      Squeezing verse UTG, I'm not really sure about what kind of range is ideal for a solid base. I think something like adding in some JJ+ for value and then add in about 24 combos of bluffs that is something like: 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 79s and ATs, A2s.

      What do others think?
    • holmeboy
      holmeboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2010 Posts: 1,336
      Thats very bluff heavy no?

      Ofc it depends on the opponent but a decent reg should be able to exploit you quite easily by 4betting imo

      edit:

      I think you made a typo that confused me lol:

      Originally posted by jules97
      SB: KK+, AQo, KQs
      BB: KK+, KQo, AJs,

      So, 6 value combos, and 16 bluff combos.
      But yeah mine are pretty much the same
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782
      Against an unknown full stack UT 3bb raiser at zoom small stakes I'd 3bet to 10bb with

      8% from SB: 99+, ATs+, KJs+, AJo+, KQo
      7% from the BB: JJ+, 66-44, AKs, A9s-A6s, KTs-K9s, QTs, T9s, AKo

      or something close to that.
    • jules97
      jules97
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.06.2012 Posts: 1,449
      Oh yeah holmeboy I can't add up!

      Originally posted by lnternet
      Against an unknown full stack UT 3bb raiser at zoom small stakes I'd 3bet to 10bb with

      8% from SB: 99+, ATs+, KJs+, AJo+, KQo
      7% from the BB: JJ+, 66-44, AKs, A9s-A6s, KTs-K9s, QTs, T9s, AKo

      or something close to that.
      Wow that is an awful lot. :f_eek:

      Do you think you get credit verse an unknown? Or can we put this down to small stakes opening UTG a little wider and calling 5bets a little looser then at nl25?

      3betting a 7 or 8% range against a 14% UTG opening range would mean UTG has to fold an way too much (be int to the 3b, 5b of postflop)to be profitable?

      He'd only need to defend a super strong range and you are making it profitable for him to 4bet bluff too much?
      I'm confused. :f_confused: :f_confused:



      How different does your squeezing range from the blinds look like against this UTG and a say an unkown full stack BUT caller?
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Thanks for that post lnternet. Id go qq+ in the bb tho at lower zoomstakes

      So youre calling axs?
    • Riverdiver
      Riverdiver
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.07.2012 Posts: 1,126
      Originally posted by lnternet
      Against an unknown full stack UT 3bb raiser at zoom small stakes I'd 3bet to 10bb with

      8% from SB: 99+, ATs+, KJs+, AJo+, KQo
      7% from the BB: JJ+, 66-44, AKs, A9s-A6s, KTs-K9s, QTs, T9s, AKo

      or something close to that.
      Why is the bb range so polarized when the sb range is much more merged?
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782
      Originally posted by jules97
      3betting a 7 or 8% range against a 14% UTG opening range would mean UTG has to fold an way too much (be int to the 3b, 5b of postflop)to be profitable?
      Against 14% this is too wide indeed. But I don't think an unknown open is going to average out to 14%. Against maybe 17% average it's good.

      Originally posted by Riverdiver
      Why is the bb range so polarized when the sb range is much more merged?
      SB no cold call range
      BB cold call range
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Gold
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,070
      thanks, thats good stuff