Late stage MTT

    • ballsdeep11
      ballsdeep11
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2013 Posts: 6
      Mate was sweating me as I played an MTT, down to the last 27 runners. Had 80k stack with 10k being the BB. Bubble had been burst and tbh the stacks overall were pretty even except from the top 5.

      I am SB with A3s and a tight player from middle pos min raises with a similar stack size, he says, shove. I disagree because with level stack sizes amongst most players in the MTT and against a tight player, i'm behind the majority of the time, I feel like I should shove in a better spot, when I have the initiative or attacking the blinds.

      Whats the opinion of PS?
  • 6 replies
    • Acespeci
      Acespeci
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2012 Posts: 340
      Your stack size in relation to BB doesnt matter whole lot in the late phase of a MTT. Its more ICM you should be concern about.

      You said the stack size is pretty even up to top 5. I would put myself in 6th spot and play like I am in 6th spot. A few All-in push would consolidate that spot anyways. That doesnt mean your going to fold every hand and wait.

      For example
      1. 389K
      2. 350K
      3. 315K
      4. 260K
      5. 185K
      6. 101K (hero)

      My understanding of Poker different; I never had a poker coach. This is not in poker books Just something I pick up from experience.

      Dont know if this is right or wrong. Just a matter of taste
    • Acespeci
      Acespeci
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.04.2012 Posts: 340
      Thats my opinion.

      Considering ICM is 100% correct but who got time to run all the Torny info in the ICM calculator to see which hand to push :D


      I disagree because with level stack sizes amongst most players in the MTT and against a tight player, i'm behind the majority of the time, I feel like I should shove in a better spot, when I have the initiative or attacking the blinds.



      Your in 6th spot (artificially) out 27 so your correct. If he is min raising you a lot you can consider pushing with A3 suited
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      The way to proof it in terms of chip EV not ICM assuming your stack is 80k before putting in the SB and therefore 75k after putting the SB is:

      X= Opponents Calling Range in % (Must be in relation to their raising range so if they are minraising 15% of all hands and calling 5% of all hands all in, then their calling range in this equation is 33%)
      Y = A3s equity vs Opponents Calling Range

      ((1-X)*35000) + (X*Y*105000) - (X*(1-Y)*75000)

      If this number is positive then the shove is +EV and expected to win chips in the long run. Of course depends on how accurate your guess of opponents calling range is.

      Then there's ICM, because while the expected value of chips won may be positive, the amount in terms of $ won may not be positive because chips do not always have a linear relationship with $ because prize structures differ.
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,241
      Since it's not about a final table, ICM shouldn't be very important. The future game aspect will nullify it in most cases, unless you are playing a final table. In the end the money is earned for places 1 to 3 and not for getting 7th or anything (which doesn't mean that playing a tournament "for the win" is the right choice).

      However, since you only have 8BB left, you won't have a lot of fold equity under normal circumstances. Your equity won't be very good either considering his tight opening range.

      I would most likely fold and try to get a spot where I can open push my hand first in.

      If you have any further questions feel free to ask!

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by Asaban
      Since it's not about a final table, ICM shouldn't be very important. The future game aspect will nullify it in most cases, unless you are playing a final table. In the end the money is earned for places 1 to 3 and not for getting 7th or anything (which doesn't mean that playing a tournament "for the win" is the right choice).

      However, since you only have 8BB left, you won't have a lot of fold equity under normal circumstances. Your equity won't be very good either considering his tight opening range.

      I would most likely fold and try to get a spot where I can open push my hand first in.

      If you have any further questions feel free to ask!

      Regards,
      Asaban
      What exactly do you mean by not playing for the win? I don't play many tourneys but I usually try to take every spot that I think is even the slightest +EV in terms of chips. Is this a mistake?
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,241
      For most parts of the tournament that's perfectly fine.

      However, in the very late game of a tournament ICM kicks in. Basically the concept states, that the chips you potentially win in a spot are not as valuable as the ones you potentially lose. Therefore you can't take any +EV situation, but need a few extra % in order to stay profitable.

      Adding chips won't increase your $EV (the amount of $ you are expected to win) as much as lost chips will lower it.

      If you want to know more about the ICM concept I would recommend reading the silver article: http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/sng/175/1/

      Practising the concept with the Pokerstrategy.com ICM Trainer will help you to make use of your knowledge. The ICM Trainer, which is available for free, can be found here: http://www.pokerstrategy.com/software/7/

      Regards,
      Asaban