How to construct balanced flop c/c and c/r ranges as pfr?

    • 24magus24
      24magus24
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 19.04.2010 Posts: 3,780
      The question is in the title. I noticed, that my standard line as pfr is cbet or give up. When check oop, i c/f most of the time. I dont think this is good. So how can i construct these c/c, c/r ranges as pfr. Obviously that doesnt work when we c/c our medium strength made hands, or c/r draws. How balance these ranges?
  • 8 replies
    • Alan883
      Alan883
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2008 Posts: 1,941
      Well i won't discuss here much since i don't think i am competent enaugh to do this discussions but here are my thoughts.

      The point of balance is that you play the same way when you hit and when you don't. So you balance your value check/raise with some bluffs c/r for example when you hit a flush draw. Definitely you want to c/r when you have some fold equity combined with hand equity.

      Also the question is at what limit you play. Until NL200 (i have never been there...i just say what i heard from coaches) you dont have to play very balanced because opponents will not exploit you. So vs bad players you can play much more for value and a bit less as a bluff. Vs good players you can do sometimes some moves like c/r as a bluff because of reasons i mentioned before.

      Regarding not firing cbets when you dont hit the flop this is for me a big mistake. A lot of players have weak ranges when they call your bet. If flop is good to cbet (dry boards where you dont expect opponent will hit to often nad lets say oponent is not a happy floater) you should definitely fire a cbet and make a plan for turn. If scare card comes you can fire second barrel or just give up. So there is plenty of possibility.

      So to not become exploitable, which is the main reason to play balanced, you have to do same lines when you have good hands and when you have bad hands. But be very careful when playing balanced. You need a opponent who understand this. If calls everything play just for value without unnecessary sophisticated bluffs.

      I know this is not the best answer you can get but i tried to explan some things. I hope it helped a bit :f_confused:
    • 24magus24
      24magus24
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 19.04.2010 Posts: 3,780
      Thanks Alan883!
      I was thinking about these things the similar way as you. I just wanted to get opinions. The limits are SH NL50-100.
    • unshpe
      unshpe
      Basic
      Joined: 20.05.2013 Posts: 294
      Do what Harrington does. Look at a watch and randomly decide what to do.
    • Alan883
      Alan883
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.12.2008 Posts: 1,941
      Simply said we can have balanced range postflop as preflop and the thing is in my opinion pretty much similar, only it is a bit harder to do right things.

      Let say we have balanced preflop 3 betting range on the button and we have a range of K8s - KJs+ and A2s-ATs (jst an example). we also do need on the other side value range of AQ+ QQ+ of 3bets so we play balanced and opponent doesn't know exactly what we hold and we are difficult to exploit.

      On the other hand we have players who folds to 3bet like 100% but have very wide PFR and are aggro postflop. We might want to just call with AA vs those players and we are not affraid there that they will exploit us and realized that our 3bet range is weak.

      The same things apply post flop but as said are a bit more difficult. I think it is also just to general question how to create our ranges because it depends on our opponent so so much. So the answer and discussion would be very very long to cover all the scenarios.

      Maybe here is also my suggestion for you. If you would like to be really balanced and understand a theory behind it you might be interested to take few lessons with our coaches and invest few buy ins in it. You would get so many quality information.

      I wish you all success at the tables.
    • Dawidas888
      Dawidas888
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2009 Posts: 826
      Hey 24magus24,

      You can check out this thread Thinking about ranges - mental exercises which may help you out with balancing your ranges as PFR. I have just started doing this myself with the help of NLH Applications book by Janda so my ranges may not be super solid. However, the starting point is always to start thinking about it and doing something with that information. Create your own ranges, try to look for situations when you play where you could apply those ranges and then rince and repeat.
    • 24magus24
      24magus24
      Moderator
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      Joined: 19.04.2010 Posts: 3,780
      Thanks Dawidas888!
      I'll definitely go through your topic. I also got the book a few days ago, just started the preflop section.
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      U only need balanced range against balanced opponents. Otherwise just cbet atc and print moniez. As it was said before - if u play nl200, u shouldn't worry about this.

      Basically u can check your stats and see how far from balanced u are. U should have something like skip cbet and fold stat 50%, or even less. It's pretty hard to get. U have to c/c much more than u want to. c/calling something like 2nd pair - TP2nd kicker and c/raising sets with some bluffs will give u 65%, so u have to c/c some Ahi's and other weak hands to get these ranges balanced.

      Against some weaker players u could actually lose money doing this, they won't bet enough bluffs when checked to and when u call down u will always lose. I run some filters and turned out that c/c with TP2nd kicker is barely breaking even @nl400 on stars, while u should be able to profitably call down 3 streets with almost any TP in theory.
    • DeLau
      DeLau
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.01.2009 Posts: 1,606
      Originally posted by getdotacom
      U only need balanced range against balanced opponents. Otherwise just cbet atc and print moniez. As it was said before - if u play nl200, u shouldn't worry about this.
      This is not true, people at nl200 will definitely exploit such a big leak.

      Oblioo has a couple of excellent vids on this topic (diamond though).