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[NL20-NL50] NL25 SH Zoom Q5o

    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
      SB ($13.63)
      Hero ($26.37)
      UTG ($36.38)
      UTG+1 ($27.06)
      CO ($18.87)
      BTN ($28.15)

      Dealt to Hero Q:diamond: 5:heart:

      fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $2.10, SB calls $1.35

      FLOP ($4.20) J:club: 6:diamond: 3:club:

      SB checks, Hero checks

      TURN ($4.20) J:club: 6:diamond: 3:club: 9:heart:

      SB checks, Hero checks

      RIVER ($4.20) J:club: 6:diamond: 3:club: 9:heart: 2:heart:

      SB checks, Hero checks

      SB shows T:diamond: A:diamond:
      (Pre 66%, Flop 76.6%, Turn 86.4%)

      Hero shows Q:diamond: 5:heart:
      (Pre 34%, Flop 23.4%, Turn 13.6%)

      SB wins $4.01


      Unknown

      Might be fish, might be midstacker. So play carefully post flop.

      Flop - no equity so no cbet, even when its hard for him to call 2 streets with medium hand like 77-TT or AQ, AK.

      Turn - chekc again indicates reall weakness, so maybe I should bet. But on the other hand - A high can call there, because he also see weakeness on flop.
  • 12 replies
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,332
      Hey SpeedFANat1c,

      Think preflop 3bet with Q5o is unnecessary vs unknown.

      Postflop is totally fine. At least you have started to develop a profile on opponents small-blind tendencies by playing the hand this way.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      Think preflop 3bet with Q5o is unnecessary vs unknown.


      But some are 3beting almost 100% vs unknown SB steals. I think pleno 3bets a ton when he playes NL25 vs unknowns. Because averge steal range is very wide and they dont 4bet too much. And then after they call - its easy to take post flop.
    • BrokesoBroke
      BrokesoBroke
      Black
      Joined: 23.10.2007 Posts: 889
      So by checking you are probably not going to "take it down" :P
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      Originally posted by BrokesoBroke
      So by checking you are probably not going to "take it down" :P
      I think I cannot take it donw 100% of the time, so I want some bit better situation.
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,332
      Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c
      But some are 3beting almost 100% vs unknown SB steals. I think pleno 3bets a ton when he playes NL25 vs unknowns. Because averge steal range is very wide and they dont 4bet too much. And then after they call - its easy to take post flop.
      I'm not saying your 3bet is necessarily -EV, just saying it's unnecessary.

      I think it's important to be practical. Lately I'm seeing quite a few guys justify stuff with "well, pleno1 does this". :D

      Pleno1 is a very strong player, and marginal spots that are +EV for him may be losing plays for others.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      Ok, what % of hands would you recommend in BB to 3bet vs unknown SB? I will then try to pick best hands from this %

      Btw my default flat range is somethign like this:

      22+, A8s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A8o+, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o

      which is already 31%. So besides this 31 how much % would be a 3bet?
    • Dawidas888
      Dawidas888
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2009 Posts: 826
      Hey SPeed :f_grin:

      Here's my BB defending range vs unknowns/loose villains:
      Flat: TT-22, AT-A2, KJs-K2s, KJo-K7o, Q2s+, QJo-Q8o, J4s+, JTo-J8o, T5s+, T8o+, 95s+, 97o+, 85s+, 87o, 74s+, 76o, 64s+, 53s+, 43s - 45.40%
      3bet: JJ+, AJ+, KQ, 84s, 73s, 63s, 52s, 42s, 32s, T7o, 96o, 86o, 75o, 65o, 54o - 13.88%

      I probably don't 3bet as much as pleno1 but this is because I'm not that good (yet) :f_biggrin:
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      I probably don't 3bet as much as pleno1 but this is because I'm not that good (yet)


      hey

      But call a lot. I think when you call, you get more difficult spots than with 3bet.
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,332
      Without being too specific about which hands I 3bet and which I will flat -

      35% defend range seems fine to me vs unknown.

      22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q9s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 54s, A2o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo

      This roughly stops a 3x steal from making much money on bluffs, but doesn't include any hands that are going to be tough to play because they are garbage.

      Vs a min-raise you should defend wider, vs a 4x you should defend tighter.
    • SherlockHolmes2ez
      SherlockHolmes2ez
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.03.2012 Posts: 334
      Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
      SB ($13.63)
      Hero ($26.37)
      UTG ($36.38)
      UTG+1 ($27.06)
      CO ($18.87)
      BTN ($28.15)

      Dealt to Hero Q:diamond: 5:heart:

      fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $2.10, SB calls $1.35

      FLOP ($4.20) J:club: 6:diamond: 3:club:

      SB checks, Hero checks

      TURN ($4.20) J:club: 6:diamond: 3:club: 9:heart:

      SB checks, Hero checks

      RIVER ($4.20) J:club: 6:diamond: 3:club: 9:heart: 2:heart:

      SB checks, Hero checks

      SB shows T:diamond: A:diamond:
      (Pre 66%, Flop 76.6%, Turn 86.4%)

      Hero shows Q:diamond: 5:heart:
      (Pre 34%, Flop 23.4%, Turn 13.6%)

      SB wins $4.01


      Unknown

      Might be fish, might be midstacker. So play carefully post flop.

      Flop - no equity so no cbet, even when its hard for him to call 2 streets with medium hand like 77-TT or AQ, AK.

      Turn - chekc again indicates reall weakness, so maybe I should bet. But on the other hand - A high can call there, because he also see weakeness on flop.
      I would bluff the turn card, and if I get called I'd shut down many hands have missed, and u would just lose 2.2$ if u bet the turn.
    • Dawidas888
      Dawidas888
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2009 Posts: 826
      Originally posted by w34z3l
      Without being too specific about which hands I 3bet and which I will flat -

      35% defend range seems fine to me vs unknown.

      22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q9s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 54s, A2o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo

      This roughly stops a 3x steal from making much money on bluffs, but doesn't include any hands that are going to be tough to play because they are garbage.

      Vs a min-raise you should defend wider, vs a 4x you should defend tighter.
      Hi w34z3l!

      Aren't we supposed to defend at least 37.5% in 3x OR case? As the stealer is risking only 2.5bb to win 4bb (100-2.5/4*100=37.5). However, even then we would still be exploitable as the stealer does not automatically lose when we call. Therefore, we need to defend even wider. How wider depends on our 3bet frequencies.
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,332
      Originally posted by Dawidas888
      Hi w34z3l!

      Aren't we supposed to defend at least 37.5% in 3x OR case? As the stealer is risking only 2.5bb to win 4bb (100-2.5/4*100=37.5). However, even then we would still be exploitable as the stealer does not automatically lose when we call. Therefore, we need to defend even wider. How wider depends on our 3bet frequencies.
      Yes, this is all true from a theoretical level.

      Seeing as I expect a positive expectation from postflop play it's totally fine to under-defend preflop.

      Defending the theoretical optimum assumes perfect postflop play. What happens very often postflop is that guys end up spewing with the bottom of their range, and overall it would be more profitable if they didn't defend those hands in the first place.

      To put it another way, guys focus so much on preflop ranges and prices that they sometimes forget there is a potential to lose way more money on later streets.