[NL20-NL50] [SH] NL25 QJs river spot - bluff gone weird

    • Dawidas888
      Dawidas888
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2009 Posts: 826
      Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $11.39 (45.6 bb)
      Hero (BB): $50.82 (203.3 bb)
      MP: $15.87 (63.5 bb)
      CO: $30.55 (122.2 bb)
      BTN: $25 (100 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with Q J
      2 folds, BTN raises to $0.75, SB folds, Hero calls $0.50

      Flop: ($1.60) 8 9 8 (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN bets $1, Hero raises to $3.50, BTN calls $2.50

      Turn: ($8.60) 2 (2 players)
      Hero bets $6.25, BTN calls $6.25

      River: ($21.10) J (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN bets $14.50 and is all-in, Hero folds

      -----

      BU was 23/19/7 over 118
      BU Stl - 50
      CB: F - 100(6)
      AG% - 52 (60/29/60)

      FLOP
      Went for a x/r with a GS+OCs as villain seemed fairly aggressive.

      TURN
      Continuing with my bluff.

      RIVER
      I couldn't shove for value nor could I x/c to bluffcatch. I think my 10 outs were actually only 4 outs.

      I suspect villain always has 8x in this spot so there's no point to bluffcatch, right?
  • 6 replies
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Hi David,

      Preflop: looks fine

      Postflop: See, these are the flop texture where you do not rep much at all. Sure you will have some 8x but very little. And 88/99 does not raise nor does 9x.

      What was really the point of that turn bet?
    • Dawidas888
      Dawidas888
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2009 Posts: 826
      Hi Bogdan,

      Thanks for the evaluation!

      FLOP
      Well, I do have quite a few 8x combos in my range (A8s, K8s, Q8s, J8s, T8s) so it would be a mistake for someone to call me light all the time only because they think I don't rep much. And I'm always raising those hands because I need to protect and I often get light calls. So I think having a raising range OTF is fine. I'm just not sure if there are better hands to choose for bluffing (and I think there are, I'll just need to do my little range construction exercise to figure that out :f_biggrin: ).

      TURN
      I agree with you regarding the turn bet, I stopped before betting OTT as nothing really folds. Not sure why I fired again. Should've just check/folded.

      Thanks again!
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by Dawidas888
      Hi Bogdan,

      Thanks for the evaluation!

      FLOP
      Well, I do have quite a few 8x combos in my range (A8s, K8s, Q8s, J8s, T8s) so it would be a mistake for someone to call me light all the time only because they think I don't rep much. And I'm always raising those hands because I need to protect and I often get light calls. So I think having a raising range OTF is fine. I'm just not sure if there are better hands to choose for bluffing (and I think there are, I'll just need to do my little range construction exercise to figure that out :f_biggrin: ).

      TURN
      I agree with you regarding the turn bet, I stopped before betting OTT as nothing really folds. Not sure why I fired again. Should've just check/folded.

      Thanks again!
      So A8s, K8s, Q8s, J8s, T8s are about 10 combos, and if I'm not mistaken you were telling me the other day that you 3-bet some of those hands.

      So really, you are trying to rep 6-10 combos of value?

      Sure, if you start adding overpairs that you slowplay, strong 9x, etc then you can have a wider bluff range.
    • Dawidas888
      Dawidas888
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2009 Posts: 826
      My BBvBU ranges:
      Flat - 99-33,A9o-A2o,KTo-K7o,QJo-Q8o,JTo-J9o,T9o,98o,A8s-A2s,KTs-K5s,QJs-Q7s,JTs-J8s,T9s-T8s - 28.2%
      3bet - AA-TT,22,AKo-ATo,KQo-KJo,AKs-A9s,KQs-KJs,K4s-K2s,Q6s-Q2s,J7s-J6s,T7s,98s-96s,87s-85s,76s-75s,65s-64s,54s-53s,43s - 17.5%

      I call all of the before mentioned hands. I agree that 10 combos of value ain't much but that's as much as there usually is. Given that I x/r these value hands I could x/r like 10-20 combos of bluffs.

      And I don't slowplay any OPs (no point in doing that in BB as flop often brings a lot of value hands to my otherwise weak calling range) and would probably just call with A9 :f_biggrin:

      Are you saying that I shouldn't have a raising range on this flop?
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by Dawidas888
      My BBvBU ranges:
      Flat - 99-33,A9o-A2o,KTo-K7o,QJo-Q8o,JTo-J9o,T9o,98o,A8s-A2s,KTs-K5s,QJs-Q7s,JTs-J8s,T9s-T8s - 28.2%
      3bet - AA-TT,22,AKo-ATo,KQo-KJo,AKs-A9s,KQs-KJs,K4s-K2s,Q6s-Q2s,J7s-J6s,T7s,98s-96s,87s-85s,76s-75s,65s-64s,54s-53s,43s - 17.5%

      I call all of the before mentioned hands. I agree that 10 combos of value ain't much but that's as much as there usually is. Given that I x/r these value hands I could x/r like 10-20 combos of bluffs.

      And I don't slowplay any OPs (no point in doing that in BB as flop often brings a lot of value hands to my otherwise weak calling range) and would probably just call with A9 :f_biggrin:

      Are you saying that I shouldn't have a raising range on this flop?
      A value raising range is fine. Just because you have value doesn't mean you have to have a lot of bluffs. Most people won't give you respect that's why you can actually increase your value range and decrease your bluff range (kinda like what you do preflop when someone calls a lot of 3-bets).
    • Dawidas888
      Dawidas888
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2009 Posts: 826
      Hi Bogdan,

      I made a range analysis for this hand and here's what I came up with:

      PREFLOP – BB v BTN flatting range
      99-33, A9o-A2o, KTo-K7o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J9o, T9o, 98o, A8s-A2s, KTs-K5s, QJs-Q7s, JTs-J8s, T9s-T8s – 28.2%

      FLOP8 8 9 (312 combos)
      Check-raising range: K8o(6), K8s(2), Q8o(6), Q8s(2), J8s(2), T8s(2), A7f-A2f(18), KTf(3), QJf-QTf(6) = 47
      - Value hands include all 8x hands without an ace.
      - Bluff hands include BDNFD and BDFD+OCs.
      Check-calling range: 99-88(4), A9-A8(17), K9(12), Q9(12), J9(12), T9(12), 98o(5), JT(16), QJo-QTo(26) = 116
      - Check/call range includes the nuts, A8, TPs, OESDs and GS+OCs.
      Total combos of checks defended: 163 (52%)

      After check-raising OTF
      TURN8 8 9 2 (46 combos; -1 A:c2 combo)
      Value betting range: K8o(6), K8s(2), Q8o(6), Q8s(2), J8s(2), T8s(2) = 20
      - All 8x hands.
      Bluff betting range: A:c7-A:c3(5), K:cT(1), Q:cJ-Q:cT(2), A2s(2) = 10
      - All BDFDs.
      Total combos bet: 30 (65%)
      - I won’t be protecting my checking range, but I guess it’s ok as villain had to pay to get to this profitable spot. Or should I be protecting?

      After check-raising OTF and betting OTT
      RIVER8 8 9 2 J (28 combos, -1 J8s, -1 Q:cJ combo)
      Value betting range: K8o(6), K8s(2), Q8o(6), Q8s(2), J8s(1), T8s(2), A:c7-A:c3(5), K:cT(1), Q:cT(1) = 26
      - All value hands.
      Total combos bet: 26 (93%)

      *f – with backdoor flush draw

      -----

      1. I shove with a merged value range OTR as almost all my bluffs improved and I can’t really check/call with some of my weaker hands. Do you think it's good to shove all value hands OTR?

      Also, it seems that check/raising QJs OTF was not a mistake. Main mistake, like you pointed out, was continuing with my bluff OTT.