[NL20-NL50] [Sh] Nl50 Jj

    • dannywratten
      dannywratten
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.05.2010 Posts: 1,462
      hi,

      BU 22/19/2.9/9.9/30/1.3k

      FTcbet flop 25%(8)/FTcbet turn 25(4)

      Alternate flop/turn lines?
      I thought about c/c turn because he doesn't like to fold & I can let him bet his floats.


      I think my river bet is atrocious, not really getting value from anything, & when he calls the turn he has to have at least something so c/f is probably best. Can't see him value betting worse.

      I was probably just feeling stubborn since this guy never folds I didn't want to let him bluff me if I checked :D
      Pure spew


      BTN: $83.25 (166.5 bb)
      Hero (SB): $81.78 (163.6 bb)
      BB: $50 (100 bb)
      UTG: $50.48 (101 bb)
      MP: $104.96 (209.9 bb)
      CO: $54.64 (109.3 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with J J
      3 folds, BTN raises to $1.25, Hero raises to $4.75, BB folds, BTN calls $3.50

      Flop: ($10) 9 9 7 (2 players)
      Hero bets $5.50, BTN calls $5.50

      Turn: ($21) 3 (2 players)
      Hero bets $10.50, BTN calls $10.50

      River: ($42) 6 (2 players)
      Hero bets $18, BTN raises to $62.50 and is all-in, Hero folds

      Results:
      $78 pot ($2.50 rake)
      Final Board: 9 9 7 3 6
      BTN mucked and won $75.50 ($36.75 net)
      Hero mucked J J and lost (-$38.75 net)
  • 11 replies
    • Dawidas888
      Dawidas888
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.06.2009 Posts: 826
      Hi Danny,

      PREFLOP
      What are his Ft3b/4b stats as it would help make up a range of hands he comes to the flop?

      FLOP
      I think flop is a standard cbet as you'll get value from his floats and I assume most of you 3bet bluffing range hits quite well (SCs mostly) so you don't really have a huge check/folding range which you would then need to protect.

      TURN
      You won't get 3 streets of value from worse PPs so I don't mind check/calling this turn to get value from floats (again, this depends on his preflop calling range - does it include JJ-TT or lower PPs?).

      RIVER
      As played, you don't have much value, but your small sizing compensates for that + I wouldn't expect him to bluff shove here as he don't really have much bluffs in his range besides a couple of missed BDFDs.

      You could consider check/calling the river if he's aggressive (depending on his river stats), but this is rarely profitable.
    • dannywratten
      dannywratten
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.05.2010 Posts: 1,462
      Thanks, his FT3b is 63%, 4b 23%.
      So I 3b him fairly polarized.

      100bb deep I'm 3b/5betting most PP vs him, but it got a bit difficult being a bit deeper. Actually considered just flatting pre, but I think I lose too much value.

      Agree with everything postflop, thought it was close between betting or c/c turn but now I'm def leaning toward c/c turn.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Hey Danny,

      What range do you start with here preflop?

      Generally, I would put JJ in check/call range on the flop, unless you expect him to float often given his stats and play vs you.

      As played flop, turn will very often be a check/call.. not enough small pairs that call down imo..
    • dannywratten
      dannywratten
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.05.2010 Posts: 1,462
      Hey Manu, not sure how much my 3b range should change with deeper stacks, but 100bb deep I'm probably 3b/5b almost all PP & something like AQ+.
      So i guess I should be a bit more depolarized now because I would expect him to call more IP being deep.

      JJ seemed close, because I'm in a pretty tough spot if he 4bets because I know he could still have a bluff range.


      Postflop, didn't really think about c/c flop because the guy really doesn't like folding vs cbets. But i do rather c/c turn over my line, & betting river is just ridic.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      I'd say if you get 4bet you should call very often, not have much of a 5bet range so deep since he is super polarised already you just act like a bluffcatcher with most of your range unless you can induce spewy 6bet ships which is super unlikely.

      I think your range should be quite depolarised here because he will defend often and not 4bet you out of the pot because you can call 4bets this deep. The SPR turn into that of a 3bet pot (there or thereabouts) plus his range is more polarised than in a 3bet pot.

      LE: realised it might not be clear but what I meant is that if he 4bets, he is super polarised and you can call and if he thinks about his 4bet range he probably flats instead of 4betting very often anyway so facing a 4bet is not a problem. Changes the way you play the hand but doesn't make it -EV for you.
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,722
      Do you think that 3bet deep with any hand except AA OOP vs good reggs is a good idea?
      What do we do on flop here, when villian raises us? I think even with KK is so hard to continue. So my question is, if we can play profitable deep vs good aggro opponents OOP. So maybe, we could have just preflop calling range and not 3bet range?

      IF I decide to have 3bet range, what should it be in this situation? I could use JJ+, AK, but I think with all others it is very difficult, since opponents will call 3bet more often, and float more often having more implied odds.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      You should not have a very narrow and defined range to approach postflop because you become easy to read and exploitable. Doing exactly the opposite is better and 3betting a reasonably wide range that is able to construct balanced ranges postflop. If you have only JJ+, AK you do get called by worst preflop but then postflop you flop mediocre strength hands too often so you need to expand your hand type that you 3bet.

      Because we are deep, I expect our opponent to call more often (and us to be able to call 4bets more often) so we should be able to 3bet a few more high cards and nice connectors without fear of getting thrown out of the pot and wasting their playability. This doesn't mean we always 3bet but instead of having a snap call with say JTs, we can consider including it in our 3bet range.

      Now postflop, we reassess the strength of our hands in our range, we re-sort best hands and try to be balanced and uncapped. I would suggest taking a more passivle line OOP because it does let us keep the pot smaller and induces a few more spews. If we bet, people are capable of raising but if we check, they don't overbet to pressure our whole stack.
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,722
      I got your point, thanks. I like the idea about playing passive.

      so just to be sure, what do you mean by playing passive? do you mean to check/call flop with most of our value range? I guess not, because we can't bluff then.
      Or to cbet flop, and check/call turn and river?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      I would not check/call ALL my value hands, I would try to split between them a bit. The less likely the opponent to have a well constructed raising range, the more often I bet because then I know to bet/fold or bet/call. What I don't want is to bet often and giving my opponent the chance to use his position and the information given by it to the max and construct good call and raising ranges vs me.

      Just as a small estimate, my check/call range here would probably contain a few hands like AK, AQ, TT, JJ, QQ, K9s, A9s. I would probably cbet other 9x, KK, AA for value. Now, this is just a rough estimate.. QQ can be split into both depending on what you've played so far and what you've seen his tendency vs cbets to be.

      Keep in mind that just because we know we don't cbet all our value range, doesn't mean our opponent correctly estimates and therefore instantly adjusts to exploit us having to many bluffs.

      I personally noticed people still giving cbets a bit too much credit because they look at frequency. For example, out of my opening range I cbet 40% bluffs, 10% value and I have 50% cbet frequency which seems normal and wouldn't get attacked too much. But it's clear that I have too many bluffs if you know that I do this. :)

      Hope it makes sense for you!
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,722
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      I would not check/call ALL my value hands, I would try to split between them a bit. The less likely the opponent to have a well constructed raising range, the more often I bet because then I know to bet/fold or bet/call. What I don't want is to bet often and giving my opponent the chance to use his position and the information given by it to the max and construct good call and raising ranges vs me.

      Just as a small estimate, my check/call range here would probably contain a few hands like AK, AQ, TT, JJ, QQ, K9s, A9s. I would probably cbet other 9x, KK, AA for value. Now, this is just a rough estimate.. QQ can be split into both depending on what you've played so far and what you've seen his tendency vs cbets to be.

      Keep in mind that just because we know we don't cbet all our value range, doesn't mean our opponent correctly estimates and therefore instantly adjusts to exploit us having to many bluffs.

      I personally noticed people still giving cbets a bit too much credit because they look at frequency. For example, out of my opening range I cbet 40% bluffs, 10% value and I have 50% cbet frequency which seems normal and wouldn't get attacked too much. But it's clear that I have too many bluffs if you know that I do this. :)

      Hope it makes sense for you!

      Ok, as I understood, with this line (40% bluffs / 10% value) you are not balanced at all, but your cbet stat (which everyone has) would tell that you have average (or a bit less) cbet percantage, so they can conclude that you have mostly value when you cbet.
      On the other side, they could look in your check/call stat and see that it is unusually large, and conclude that you are actually bluffing when you cbet? I think that would be easy indicator, but
      i guess most people dont check it, and just look at your cbet stat? IS that your point? And then when you see that some guy adjusted to that, then you readjust vs him?

      I play in pokerstars, NL50, there are in average 350 players. I play 2 months there, and I just remember few reggs who play regulary, and I try to follow their game and try to find spots to exploit them. For me it is very hard to follow the game of all people, especially that there are many people who appear once and dont play anymore. So I guess, that also not many people are paying attention to my game, but I am not sure. What do you think?

      Do you think that I should pay attention a lot to balancing, considering that most of the people probably dont even pay attention to my game? I could try to have normal stats (e.g 50% for cbet flop as you suggested), so that everything looks normal, but to explot them if they dont realize.

      I try to color the people whos game I follow, or if some people adapted to my game, so I can easier follow their game and readjust. Do you think it is ok approach, or some advice?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Yes, not balanced, maybe only perceived range is balanced because I don't look out of line. :)

      In general, like you said, people don't look at more stats and they miss my check/call %. This was just an example though it's not EXACTLY how I do it on every board, but it's an example of some numbers that can be deceiving.

      For NL50 Zoom I'd say you should colour code your regs and then follow their tendencies, try to make notes (or remember) when you play hands with them and when you review, create reads from those hands. I personally had like 2 hours/week reviewing regs the first time I started NL50 just to get a solid idea of what people are doing.

      Furthermore, remember that your average stats can seem super normal like 22/19/6% 3bet but against some people you probably play 26/22/10% 3bet and others 18/16/2% 3bet. You should try to adjust to what you know about the people at your table and most of the time, at least at NL50, assume they will play against your average stats, not against your true table adjusted ranges/stats.

      LE: Don't forget positional stats, btw... :f_biggrin: