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[NL20-NL50] Nl20 Sh Q9

    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.20(BB) Replayer
      SB ($21.05)
      BB ($19.94)
      UTG ($40.63)
      UTG+1 ($14.79)
      CO ($15.43)
      Hero ($21.49)

      Dealt to Hero 9:diamond: Q:spade:

      fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.60, SB calls $0.50, fold

      FLOP ($1.40) K:heart: 3:diamond: 3:club:

      SB checks, Hero checks

      TURN ($1.40) K:heart: 3:diamond: 3:club: K:spade:

      SB bets $0.70, Hero folds

      SB wins $1.33

      58/32, afq total 36, fcbet 29 (7). raise cbet 29 (7), 40h

      Tried to focus on cbets and not spew money, but yesterday played 1K hands and my cbet stat was about 40, turn cbet about 50. Flop cbet because too low :) so somehere not doing it enough.

      But here cbet would be bad I guess. And I have noting else to do on turn. But I really believe he bets a ton with air.
  • 12 replies
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,795
      Hi.

      The flop checkfold is way too weak. Just bet the flop - its such a nice board to bluff at. Ur cbet on flop should be around 60-75%. Any less or more is gonna be suboptimal in general.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      The flop checkfold is way too weak.


      The reasons why dont bet:

      BTN vs SB - he does not fold much.
      Paired board - does not fold much.
      My equity - not many outs and those outs are not clean.
      He so far does not like to fold and does like to raise vs cbets.

      For example in this hand

      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
      SB ($87.70)
      BB ($15.14)
      UTG ($50.59)
      UTG+1 ($25.44)
      Hero ($26.69)
      BTN ($22.40)

      Dealt to Hero T:spade: Q:club:

      fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.75, fold, fold, BB calls $0.50

      FLOP ($1.60) 5:diamond: A:club: 4:spade:

      BB checks, Hero checks

      TURN ($1.60) 5:diamond: A:club: 4:spade: 2:diamond:

      BB bets $0.84, Hero folds

      BB wins $1.53

      50/0 2h

      I asked and was told that its ok to not cbet. There board is not paired and position is CO which means stronger, so cbet should work more often than from BTN.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,795
      1. Equity - u have no equity but this is just a rly good spot to bluff
      2. Paired flops - paired flops are great to bluff at - villain is less likely to make a hand
      3. Fold to cbet - firstly that applies to his overall ftcb and not on this dry K high paired flop. Im sure he folds like 50%+ of hands on this board. Secondly your sample is insignificant. If u have a 2-3k sample then thats a different story.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,795
      I think this is a pretty clear flop cbet. You have some backdoor straight equity and can barrel any K and J. Your immediate fold equity vs undercards like 78s or KQ is also rly high.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      2. Paired flops - paired flops are great to bluff at - villain is less likely to make a hand


      And I also dont have hand often so cannot rep much.

      Here is another example:

      NL25 SH Zoom 44

      there I am OOP. So maybe thats the reason to not cbet.

      Ok Q9o hand - if I am OOP? Still cbet? WHen villain is IP, then he is more likely to call.

      And another question: one guy says if I want to cbet this dry board, I have to barrel any turn. Which looks non std for me. More like spew. His reasning is - they call light but then they fold turs. I protect my equity. But I see if I a make them fold 50% of time, then there really is no need to barrel any turn.


      Also - can there be playing style reason in these spots to cbet or not to cbet?
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,795
      At micros people play too weakly vs flop cbets in general. This is why having the initiative and being the preflop raiser is much more important at lower limits than at higher limits.

      For example on that K22r flop, its rly standard for a good reg to checkcall A3 here in BU vs BB. Does that happen too often at micros? I think many weaker players would just fold that to a flop cbet. Same goes for a hand like JTs with the backdoor flush draw.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      That makes sense. But what I am trying to do is to find why my redline is so bad. I am loosing > 10bb/100 as non sd over 120K sample.

      One thing is that I am loose preflop (6 handed - vipi 25.5). Trying to be less loose.

      But also my cbet is big and turn cbet is low. And on such dry boards I often have to give up turns.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,795
      Flop Cbet 60-70% and Turn Cbet 50% is good. What's your F cbet and T Cbet? I think you mentioned it was really low right?

      I just think that on such dry flops you have immediate fold equity. If you bet 2/3 pot, you are risking 2 to win 5 so you only need 40% fold equity to breakeven. And I think that's easily achievable on a K22r board. If you bet half pot, you only need 33% fold equity.

      On wetter flops you should be way more selective. Only pick hands with backdoor equity so you can barrel many more turns.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,795
      For the 44 hand, I disagree with Bogdan. Would just Cbet there anyway. A loose fish just has so much random air and even though we cannot bet for value or bet to bluff out better hands, betting is simply the option with the highest EV as opposed to check/folding, check/raising or check/calling. He's just gonna fold so often.

      As for your VPIP 25%, I suppose that's on the looser side at NL25. But if you are able to apply postflop aggression in the right spots, I don't think that's gonna be the thing that costs you money. Just make sure that you are more positionally aware.
    • dozeer
      dozeer
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.07.2011 Posts: 186
      I was once paranoid about not having that much FE on dry paired boards, that everyone is floating me so light etc..

      So I checked my DB vs my flop cbet and on dry paired boards my cbet success was pretty high, so I could continue to abuse them with high cbet %.

      like Mbml said, ppl ranges just hit these type of boards very poorly and they are not continuing with as much holdings as they should at lower stakes.
    • SPeedFANat1c
      SPeedFANat1c
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2009 Posts: 5,150
      Flop Cbet 60-70% and Turn Cbet 50% is good. What's your F cbet and T Cbet? I think you mentioned it was really low right?


      over 130K hands:

      flop 73.4
      turn 47.2


      last 22K hands:

      flop cbet: 60.6
      turn cbet 44.3

      So I checked my DB vs my flop cbet and on dry paired boards my cbet success was pretty high, so I could continue to abuse them with high cbet %. like Mbml said, ppl ranges just hit these type of boards very poorly and they are not continuing with as much holdings as they should at lower stakes.


      good point, I will try this also.

      Edit:

      checked using filter: paired flops

      flop cbet is 75.5, flop cbet % success: 52

      For K high boards its 82.1 cbet with sucess 57.3

      Q high is bit different: cbet 85.5 sucess 49.

      But overall success is ok.

      But still loosing money :D its 11K hands and lossing at 3.15 bb/100. So when my cbet is not sucesful I maybe overplay hands or something.

      Vs good regs who fold to cbet stat is like 40 then maybe I should not cbet.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,795
      It seems that you have been playing much more weak/tight in the past 22k hands. If your Flop Cbet goes down, your Turn range should be stronger on average and thus your Turn Cbet should definitely increase.