[NL2-NL10] Nl2 Kk

    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $1.58 (79 bb) VPIP:50%/PFR:0%/AF:0.7/3bet:0.0%/Steal:0%/WTSD:17%/hands:52
      Hero (BB): $2.85 (142.5 bb)
      UTG+2: $2.57 (128.5 bb)
      MP1: $5.20 (260 bb)
      MP2: $2 (100 bb)
      MP3: $3.37 (168.5 bb)
      CO: $2 (100 bb)
      BTN: $2.37 (118.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with K K
      6 folds, SB completes, Hero raises to $0.08, SB calls $0.06

      Flop: ($0.16) 2 5 A (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $0.10, SB calls $0.10

      Turn: ($0.36) A (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $0.26, SB calls $0.26

      River: ($0.88) 2 (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero checks

      Results:
      $0.88 pot ($0.03 rake)
      Final Board: 2 5 A A 2
      SB showed 4 5 and lost (-$0.44 net)
      Hero showed K K and won $0.85 ($0.41 net)
  • 25 replies
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      I'm trying to put him on a limp/call range. I'm pretty new to estimate ranges but here's what i came up with:
      99-33,AJs-A2s,K5s,Q5s,J5s,65s,KdQd,KdJd,QdJd,KdTd,QdTd,JdTd,Kd9d,Qd9d,Jd9d,Td9d,Kd8d,Qd8d,Jd8d,Td8d,9d8d,Kd7d,Qd7d,Jd7d,Td7d,9d7d,8d7d,Kd6d,Qd6d,Jd6d,Td6d,9d6d,8d6d,Kd4d,Qd4d,Jd4d,Kd3d,Qd3d,Kd2d,Qd2d,AJo-A2o,K5o (19.91%)
      Board: 2 :club: 5 :diamond: A :diamond:

      When i estimated who was the favorite in equilab, he was the favorite. So i can't valuebet here? Should i have checked instead?
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Hi hvard,

      You are doing it slightly wrong.

      The equity you get from equilab is for all the streets. You should be looking at just the flop.

      And we should have enough value versus a fish on both streets.
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      The equity you get from equilab is for all the streets.


      Do you mean that equilab calculates whos the favorite if me and villain went all in on the flop? How do i calculate it correctly in equilab?
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      The equity you get from equilab is for all the streets.


      Do you mean that equilab calculates whos the favorite if me and villain went all in on the flop? How do i calculate it correctly in equilab?
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Yes, that's exactly what it does.

      What's the chance you win if the money went in the middle now (now being the flop in your example).

      You simply need to look at the distribution of hands and what you get value from (draws, 2nd pair, etc)
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      What's the chance you win if the money went in the middle now (now being the flop in your example).



      Board: A:diamond: 5:diamond: 2:club:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      MP2    37.82%  37.23%   0.58% { KK }
      MP3    62.18%  61.60%   0.58% { 99-33, AJs-A2s, K5s, Q5s, J5s, 65s, KdQd, KdJd, QdJd, KdTd, QdTd, JdTd, Kd9d, Qd9d, Jd9d, Td9d, Kd8d, Qd8d, Jd8d, Td8d, 9d8d, Kd7d, Qd7d, Jd7d, Td7d, 9d7d, 8d7d, Kd6d, Qd6d, Jd6d, Td6d, 9d6d, 8d6d, Kd4d, Qd4d, Jd4d, Kd3d, Qd3d, Kd2d, Qd2d, AJo-A2o, K5o }


      You simply need to look at the distribution of hands and what you get value from (draws, 2nd pair, etc)


      Yes if i can get value from worse hands. You say the equity you get in equilab is if both went all in. But how can i simply just find out if to valuebet or not? I thought that you put villain on a range, put my hand in there, type in the flop, evaluate and see whos the favorite, if i'm the favorite, i should valuebet ?(
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      No, you cannot just type in your hand and a board/range and magically get a "valuebet" answer.

      Again, equilab calculates the chance you win the hand versus that range if the money is already all in. So it assumes you ALWAYS see a turn and a river which is not true.

      The way you do it is simply look at his range and the hands he can call you with.

      On A52 tt you can get called by Ax, pairs between 5 and A, draws. Generally if you find 50% worse hands that can call you can valuebet. You also have to realize you will pick up the pot at times and avoid giving him free cards so that adds to your profitability.
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      Generally if you find 50% worse hands that can call you can valuebet. You also have to realize you will pick up the pot at times and avoid giving him free cards so that adds to your profitability.


      Ok, there's definetely something i've have completely misunderstood here.
      I'm just gonna ask a dumb question just to make you correct me so i can understand it properly.

      His worse than KK callingrange:

      99-66,44-33,K5s,Q5s,J5s,65s,KdQd,KdJd,QdJd,KdTd,QdTd,JdTd,Kd9d,Qd9d,Jd9d,Td9d,Kd8d,Qd8d,Jd8d,Td8d,9d8d,Kd7d,Qd7d,Jd7d,Td7d,9d7d,8d7d,Kd6d,Qd6d,Jd6d,Td6d,9d6d,8d6d,Kd4d,Qd4d,Jd4d,Kd3d,Qd3d,Kd2d,Qd2d

      Given the hand you evaluated, this is the worse hands he could be calling me with, and it's only 6.49%... so i can't valuebet here? I need him to call with more worse hands until it's 50%? xD . I know it's wrong but... HELP!!=P
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      Generally if you find 50% worse hands that can call you can valuebet. You also have to realize you will pick up the pot at times and avoid giving him free cards so that adds to your profitability.


      Ok, there's definetely something i've have completely misunderstood here.
      I'm just gonna ask a dumb question just to make you correct me so i can understand it properly.

      His worse than KK callingrange:

      99-66,44-33,K5s,Q5s,J5s,65s,KdQd,KdJd,QdJd,KdTd,QdTd,JdTd,Kd9d,Qd9d,Jd9d,Td9d,Kd8d,Qd8d,Jd8d,Td8d,9d8d,Kd7d,Qd7d,Jd7d,Td7d,9d7d,8d7d,Kd6d,Qd6d,Jd6d,Td6d,9d6d,8d6d,Kd4d,Qd4d,Jd4d,Kd3d,Qd3d,Kd2d,Qd2d

      Given the hand you evaluated, this is the worse hands he could be calling me with, and it's only 6.49%... so i can't valuebet here? I need him to call with more worse hands until it's 50%? xD . I know it's wrong but... HELP!!=P
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      You would have to compare that part of his calling range with the rest of his calling range.

      Remember that he also has a range that folds and one that raises.

      Give it a shot and let's see what you come up with.
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      Ok i think i might have understood it.

      1. I put him on a flop callingrange, and if i can think of more worse hands that he could call me with than better, then this is a valuebet. If i can think of more better hands that he could call me with than worse, then i shouldn't valuebet. Is it right?

      2. If this is right, i can understand what you mean with 50%. If i can think of 50% worse hands of his callingrange that he could call me with, then this is a valuebet?

      3. When i look at it in equilab. there's 20 hands i can't beat and 39 hands i can beat. So actually, i don't need equilab when valuebetting? as long as i know that he would call me with more worse hands than better? So using equilab related to valuebet is just to get a better overview of his range and simply just look at what better or worse he would call? Otherwise, you use it when calculating all ins and probably some other things too?

      4. When i take away all of the hands i can beat, i am left with 13.88%. When i take away all the hands i can't beat: i am left with 7.84%. I thought it should be the opposite. Has it something to do with less combos since i've marked most of the hands as diamonds? I guess this has nothing to do with valuebetting but i'm just curious.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      You got the idea.

      Generally if you bet purely for value you want to have enough worse hands that can call you.

      As far as #4 goes, if I understand your question correctly, the remaining 7.84% is what he folds when we bet (hands that have nothing).

      From #3 you had 20 combos you lose to and 39 you beat so you have almost double the combos you beat (although 20 seems a bit small considering how many Ax hands he can have). For example AQ is 12 combos alone (on the flop, and 8 on the turn).
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      Generally if you bet purely for value you want to have enough worse hands that can call you.


      And enough is more worse hands than better at least 50% worse?

      As far as #4 goes, if I understand your question correctly, the remaining 7.84% is what he folds when we bet (hands that have nothing).


      Seems like the range i've typed in is a bit wrong and i don't know why.

      From #3 you had 20 combos you lose to and 39 you beat so you have almost double the combos you beat (although 20 seems a bit small considering how many Ax hands he can have). For example AQ is 12 combos alone (on the flop, and 8 on the turn).


      When i said 20 and 39, i ment hands, not combos. I don't even know what it is exactly.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Yes, 50%.

      Oh I understand.

      You definitely want to look at combos (combinations) and not hands.

      Generally speaking:

      AdQd is 1 combo.
      AQ is 16 combos.


      So for example on the flop you have one combo on TdJd but 12 combos of AQ so even though they are both a "hand" one is 12 times more likely than the other.

      You can use equilab to see combos as well.

      Try it and let me know if you need help.


      Hint:
      Pairs = 6 combos
      Offsuite Hands = 12 combos
      Suited hands = 4 combos
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      Why do i have to use this combo thing? Isn't it enough to just think about what worse and better he could call with?

      You said that AQ is 16 combos and then 12? Is this misstyped?

      1. A :spade: Q :spade:
      2. A :spade: Q :heart:
      3. A :spade: Q :diamond:
      4. A :spade: Q :club:
      5. A :heart: Q :heart:
      6. A :heart: Q :spade:
      7. A :heart: Q :diamond:
      8. A :heart: Q :club:
      9. A :club: Q :club:
      10. A :club: Q :spade:
      11. A :club: Q :heart:
      12. A :club: Q :diamond: Is this all the combos?

      Even tho i added AQs here, it doesn't make sense to me right now but i had to add it to get 12 combos. When i click on AQ in equilab and click "show combos" i get 12. It would have made sense to me if i AQs was 4 combos and AQ was 8 combos since AQ doesn't include the suited ones... Or does it? I've probably missed 2 combos too
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      You forgot to count the fact that an A is already on the board. Thus it reduces the number of combos possible.
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      What board are you talking about? Just forget about the hand i posted. I'm just wondering if i have got all the combos i've mentioned. So is it right?=)
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      You clearly used that board (from the hand) when you listed them.

      There are 16 combos, you are missing 4 (hint, you should have 4 with each color of the ace, which one is missing?).
    • hvard92
      hvard92
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.02.2012 Posts: 789
      You clearly used that board (from the hand) when you listed them.

      I have absolutely no idea what your talking about.

      There are 16 combos, you are missing 4 (hint, you should have 4 with each color of the ace, which one is missing?).


      LOL! Ofcourse the :diamond: ... Getting a bit disappointed over myself now-.-

      Alright, now as i know that i should look at combos instead of hands. Why do you look at combos instead of hands and when do you use it?
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