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[NL20-NL50] Aq 3bet flop?

  • 10 replies
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Hi mla,

      I don't think we need to balance that much on such a board against an unknown guy at 50nl.

      I rather valuebet there. I'm assuming you were afraid of a raise more than anything and that's why you checked, rather than to balance.

      As a side note, how's 50nl? I know a while back you were ready for 100nl.
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,735
      Originally posted by BogdanPS
      Hi mla,

      I don't think we need to balance that much on such a board against an unknown guy at 50nl.

      I rather valuebet there. I'm assuming you were afraid of a raise more than anything and that's why you checked, rather than to balance.

      As a side note, how's 50nl? I know a while back you were ready for 100nl.
      I was playing NL100 in ipoker, reggs were better than in NL50, I played 10k hands, and lost 10 stacks then moved back to NL50 because I was having downswing plus tilt.
      Then I moved to pokerstars and I am going almost every day in a plus, I am 70 stacks up in 45 days, and what is interesting 40 stacks up in last 10 days without pt4 working (no reads all the time).
      I plan to play again NL100 soon, when I fix my pt4.

      I was reading articles about tilt and mindset, since I notice I was losing in past a lot of money because of tilt. I concluded that in order to prevent becoming tilted, I am making short breaks every 10 minutes, and doing push ups during this short break (1 minute break).
      This helped me a lot, in last 10 days I was not tilted at all, and my concentration was highest, so probably thats the reason why I won 40 stacks in 10 days, playing around 10k hands (off course, upswing).

      Do you think it is a good approach for tilt prevention, and do you have some suggestion on that topic?
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      That approach is definitely unique (or at least it's the first time I hear about a break every 10 mins + pushups).

      I do have a bit of experience in that area from my own game + the countless students I helped.

      I would personally recommend a break at least every 1.5 hours but sometimes you may need it more often. And by break I mean a good 10-15 minutes away from the tables doing something completely different that takes your mind off of the game (and bad play/beats).

      Ideally you also want to identify what tilts you and try to first prevent it (apply a band aid fix) and then look at the root of the problem so you can fix it. But without identifying it first it will be hard to fix it.

      Also, since what you do seems to help I would just look at improving what you are doing rather than changing it all together.

      But we can start the discussion by you telling me what puts you on tilt (from what you have seen so far).
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,735
      Originally posted by BogdanPS
      That approach is definitely unique (or at least it's the first time I hear about a break every 10 mins + pushups).

      I do have a bit of experience in that area from my own game + the countless students I helped.

      I would personally recommend a break at least every 1.5 hours but sometimes you may need it more often. And by break I mean a good 10-15 minutes away from the tables doing something completely different that takes your mind off of the game (and bad play/beats).

      Ideally you also want to identify what tilts you and try to first prevent it (apply a band aid fix) and then look at the root of the problem so you can fix it. But without identifying it first it will be hard to fix it.

      Also, since what you do seems to help I would just look at improving what you are doing rather than changing it all together.

      But we can start the discussion by you telling me what puts you on tilt (from what you have seen so far).

      In general, when I lose money it leads towards tilt. I notice when I start tilting (first signs), is when I say, ooh this fish is lucky again, and when I say I am so unlucky with preflop all ins (e.g. AK, vs QQ), or they just hit nuts all the time.
      So in general, each unlucky situation adds more frustraiton and increases tilt.
      Especially, this effect is stronger, when I see that my session is in minus, and even more if last few sessions are in minus.
      If I am in plus in the session, then I am not tilting even after bad beats in a short time.

      In the neuropsyhological article, I read that negative stimuli is stronger on or brain (e.g. losing preflop all in AK vs QQ) if it repeats, and after each repeating it is stronger. They recommend breating deep, to focus on the game, and durign the game doing something else than poker or some things that we do automatic (changing focus from the tilt).

      So the 10 minutes break and push ups (or abs, whatever sport activity) is for me similar to deep breating, and changing focus from tilt and frustration. This method is not something which I read in the articles, but what I created it myself, because I think it best suits me.

      For example, once I started playing, lost immedeately 200bb in one pot bad beat, and after 30 seconds, one more all in AK vs KK, and one more set vs bdfd, so I started tilting already and made one mistake all in spewy because of frustration accumulated so fast, but my alarm clock for 10 minutes break rang, and I made a break did push ups, and then noticed how I was tilted before full of anger, and it was gone after break. Then I made a bigger break 15 minutes to analyse hands where I lost, and when I continued after, I played my A game and finished the session in plus (no tilt anymore).
      So what I wanted to say, the alarm and break stopped me from playing more, and made me realize that I am tilted (because sometimes I realize, but ingore it and continue playing). Before, when I was not making breaks, I would continue playing so tilted, and I would usually burn money unnessesary.
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      The first thing I notice is that you mention that you check if your session is plus or minus while playing. This is definitely something you want to stay away from because it has 0 positive effect on your game (unless you play on a very small BR and have to make sure you still have enough).

      So seeing that you are playing with a tracker right now that may be another reason why you are doing better mentally because you are not checking the results as you play (of course you can still check cashier but that's a bit different).

      As far as the negative aspect goes I agree 100%. That's why we want to take breaks and do something else. These breaks should be flexible (ie: not always after 50 minutes but rather when we notice that we start tilting).

      If we don't do something at the first signs of tilt it may become too late.

      And I am glad that alarm+quick break works. Eventually you'll be able to increase the period between breaks.
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,735
      I am aware that by looking each minute at my balance is bad especially because it takes awa focus from the game and increases tilt when i go in minues because of const negative stimus but i still watch it because im by nature curious and unpatient. I will try to limit that. Thanks for pointing that out.
      Regarding my short breaks i think they are especially good for retaining 100% concentration.
      In the beginning i tried making 30 min breaks and it was working good when i was running godd but when i had downswing within 30 min the tilt takes over me and i cant stop playing so then i tried shorter breaks. Playing 4 tables zoom brings me fastest to tilt so when im running good i play 4 tables for max profit and when bad i play 2. Do you think it is good approach?
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      I don't necessarily think you are looking at the cashier/results because you are just curious. I think it's in our nature to hope and want to be ahead so you are checking that as a way to confirm that. And when you are down you can't confirm it and get pissed off about it.

      I've worked with a lot of students on this part of their game and I can tell you that 9 out of 10 are much better off with checking results once every few days or as rare as possible. This is again assuming you play properly rolled (which you are).

      Of course, most people started with baby steps by lowering how often they look at these items.

      One thing that helped them was removing all these types of result driven windows/tabs/reports/stats from HM (which should be possible in PT as well once you get it back up).

      As far as the other part of your post I think it's fine. If you have so much control over yourself when you tilt I feel that you can have your alarm go off every 10 minutes for a break but you decide if you go on the break then or not (so if you play well and are not titled move the alarm another 10 minutes, and if not take the break).
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,735
      Is it ok to ask you on different topic, I want to construct my preflop ranges which are the best possible balanced, unexploitable?

      Example, how do I defend from CO vs BU 3bet from regg (>8% 3bet range)

      My idea is as following, from mathematical side:

      1) When BU is 3betting me wide from BU vs CO, he needs > 66% FE to get direct profit and exploit me (if he 3bets 9BB). It means, that in order not to let him exploit me, I need to defend >= 33% of my OR range (one third of my range 1/3). So it means, if my OR range from CO is 30%, I need to defend 1/3, which is 10% range.

      2) If I decide always to defend only by 4bets, then villian (BU) needs around 40% FE when he goes 5bet all in (for 100bb), if I 4bet 2.5x his size. This means that if I want to 4bet always but not to let him exploit me with 5bet all in, I must have >= 60% value 4bet range and 40% bluff range.
      This means, since I defend 10% range (as explained in 1) ), then I need to 4bet for value 6%, and 4bet/fold 4%.
      Now I think that 6% 4bet/call is too wide, so I conclude that it is not good to have only 4bet range. If I would OR less hands, e.g. 20% than I would need to defend vs 3bet 1/3, 6% range, and 4bet/call would need to be 4% which would be ok, but then I wouldnt steal enough of blinds from CO. So I conclude, It is the best to have call range vs 3bet and 4bet range.

      3) When I have 30% OR range from CO, and defend 10% range vs 3bet, then I want to split it into 4bet and call 3bet range. I can choose TT-QQ, AKo for value 4bet/call range (which are not so good playable postflop OOP) and this consist 60% of my value 4bet range, so I simply add bluff 4bet/fold range e.g. KJo, ATo, KTo.
      I can call 3bet AA, KK, AKs, AQ, AJ, KQ, T9s-QJs, 88, 99, KTs, KJs, QTs, ATs (playable hands which have also strong hands in the range, that I am not capped).


      So that would be one example, how I could construct defense range vs 3bet, to be not easily exploitable and to be uncapped.
      I could construct in similar fashion, all other ranges from other positions. I didnt read this approach anywhere, I came to conclusion myself, so I want to make sure that I didn't missunderstood something.

      Questions :

      a) Is the approach ok?
      b) What would be the best way for villian (BU) to exploit my range which I described if we assume that we have similiar postflop skills?
      c) I choose to defend 33% of my OR range (which is threshold), should I defend more? Is it better to defend less to have stronger defense range, or to defende more to let him exploit us with 3bet preflop less (when we fold preflop)?
      d) If I defend 10% range, and he has 3bet range 10%, who is going to make profit in the long run, if we have similar postflop skills? I think even though we have both 10% range, his range is weaker, because it consist of a lot of weak hands, like suited connectors, and villian probably calls vs CO KQ, AJ, KJ and similar.
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,735
      My pt4 is workign again. I will start soon playing NL100.
      Because of that, I would like to take coatching from you. I would like first to take a written report (longer one), on my NL50 hands (45k hands). After written report, I would like to play around 20k hands in NL100, and then start taking live coatching from you, starting with 3 lessons.

      do you think that it would be ok, first written report, so I can read in detail what you suggest, and then live coatching?
      I plan to invest in live coatching around 10 lessons at least, or more if needed to beat NL100. After those lessons, I would plan to play alone from some time until I beat NL100, and again do written report when I want to switch to NL200, and then live coatching.

      Do you have some other suggestion, methods?
    • BogdanPS
      BogdanPS
      Basic
      Joined: 12.05.2010 Posts: 27,588
      Originally posted by mlatasrb
      My pt4 is workign again. I will start soon playing NL100.
      Because of that, I would like to take coatching from you. I would like first to take a written report (longer one), on my NL50 hands (45k hands). After written report, I would like to play around 20k hands in NL100, and then start taking live coatching from you, starting with 3 lessons.

      do you think that it would be ok, first written report, so I can read in detail what you suggest, and then live coatching?
      I plan to invest in live coatching around 10 lessons at least, or more if needed to beat NL100. After those lessons, I would plan to play alone from some time until I beat NL100, and again do written report when I want to switch to NL200, and then live coatching.

      Do you have some other suggestion, methods?
      I'll answer this first then we go to talk about your other question.

      I definitely recommend a database review first (written report). If you have a big enough sample (which I think you do) you can go for the longer one. Then, based on what we find and how you like my review we can continue from there.

      Seeing how much effort you put already in your game (as seen in the previous post) you may not even need 10 lessons for nl100. Of course we can decide on that later anyway.

      Also, the database reviews are great if you are the type of person that likes to also work on their game by themselves and not be hand hold the entire time (you'll have the report with lots of different areas that could be problematic + some suggestions but you still have to be the one making the changes).

      As far as your other question goes there are many different things you can do CO vs BTN. Calling is usually the hardest one to "balance" and make perfect.

      Opening less hands from CO is definitely an option vs an aggro BTN but you can also open for less (instead of 3 BB you may open 2.5 or even 2) and thus when you get 3-bet the pot is smaller.

      Now, the approach you took in your thought process is on the right track but you have to understand, that unless you play a ton of tables or with the same villains all the time you won't really have access to the proper ranges they do things with. So, instead you should concentrate on building ranges that are the hardest to exploit by villain.

      Now, one way the villain could exploit your strategy (if he knew about, which I doubt) by simply 5-betting more for value (for example) since your value 4-bet range is not that strong.

      As far as the next question goes (re: 33% defense) you have to try to anticipate what type of reg he is. Does he shut down and 3-bet less because you defend more OR does he increase his 3-bets because you now play more OOP?

      Assuming equal skill the positional advantage should offer him a slight advantage unless he makes a mess out of it. Yes his range may be weaker but his equity versus your range is not that terrible unless he 3-bets junk or random hands.

      One good exercise for you would be to take a reg as an example (that acts similarly to this ) and try to see what range he plays like this with. And then build your plan.

      Ask yourself one thing though, is this the most important thing you could be working on at this time? Can you improve other areas, that happen more often and can yield you a better return first?

      Anyway, I'll end it here before it gets to be a wall of text.

      As a side note, I have added you as a friend on the community and I can share my skype info with you (via that tool) and then we can chat more there about your plans.