shoving over turn cb in 3b pots 100bb deep

    • ciachooooo
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 1,658
      like 2-3 years ago many were excited about strategy of playing draws in 3b pot IP with taking line call flop, shove over turn cb. I played it same way, and people did bet/fold a ton.

      I think that std line here is to call turn, and shove river if checked to...

      what is your opinion? I expect that it does matter what kind of opponent we're facing (if he bet bet shove a ton of air, raising turn makes much more sense?).

      When do you shove turn for value? when do you shove as semibluff? I would appreciate examples.

      I've seen few mins of video, where coach played a hand this way:

      100bb deep

      folded to here otb with T9ss, he minraised

      one reg from blind 3b to 6bb, hero called.

      Jc 8c 5s for OESD + backdoor fd,

      pot is 12bb, reg bet for 9bb, hero called

      turn is 8s for OESD+fd

      pot is 30bb, reg bet for 20 having 52bb left , hero shoved, saying that even QJ have hard time calling...

      what is your opinion about this hand?
      would you ever shove turn? what range do you do it with?
  • 3 replies
    • DeLau
      Joined: 10.01.2009 Posts: 1,606

      I put the scenario you described in CREV. Obviously, I had to add a lot of assumptions and simplifications. Here they are:

      SB 3betrange: AA-66,AKs-A9s,A5s-A4s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s,76s,AKo-ATo,KQo-KJo,QJo,JTo (17.3%)
      BTN 3betcalling range: AA-KK,TT-55,AKs-A2s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s,76s,65s,AQo-AJo,KQo-KJo,QJo,JTo (16.4%)

      SB cbets 8bb in 16bb pot with TP+, FD, BDNFD, OESD and FD. BTN calls cbet with middle pair+, FD, OESD, GS, Acx, Asxs.

      On turn, SB cbets 22bb in 32bb pot with TP(K-kicker)+, FD and OESD.

      So now we have the decision you were wondering about right? I assumed that a) BTN calls his entire range or b) BTN raises turn with trips+, OESD and FD and calls with TP+.

      I'm not going to type the rest of the tree here but just post the image, I tried to make river action realistic for both flushcompleting and flush-missing rivers.

      EV of scenario a (0% turn raise) is 11.52bb.
      EV of scenario b (raise turn with trips+, OESD and FD and call with TP+) is 9.34bb.

      EV is a bit higher for scenario a. Of course this EV depends highly on river action and SB's turn calling range. This EV is when SB bet/calls turn with TP, 2nd kicker+.
    • fusionpk
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,692
      This is the hand from shevts new vid right? I'm also curious, it's clear that both calling and shoving are going to be acceptable lines but I couldn't decide which I preferred.

      Although in villains spot I don't think I'm ever laying down QJ.
    • ciachooooo
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 1,658
      yeah, it's from that vid

      imo noone thinks about folding any Jx he bets turn