[NL20-NL50] JJ 3b, call min 4b

    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,722
      PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BTN: 115.54 BB (VPIP: 20.68, PFR: 16.25, 3Bet Preflop: 4.95, Hands: 1,393)
      SB: 276.24 BB (VPIP: 16.34, PFR: 12.20, 3Bet Preflop: 1.80, Hands: 420)
      BB: 134.62 BB (VPIP: 22.49, PFR: 16.91, 3Bet Preflop: 5.87, Hands: 1,171)
      UTG: 75.5 BB
      MP: 103.7 BB (VPIP: 13.04, PFR: 6.52, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 46)
      Hero (CO): 339.84 BB

      SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J:spade: J:diamond:

      fold, MP raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, fold, MP raises to 19 BB, Hero calls 10 BB

      Flop: (39.5 BB, 2 players) 6:club: 3:spade: 5:club:
      MP checks, Hero checks

      Turn: (39.5 BB, 2 players) 6:heart:
      MP bets 27 BB, Hero calls 27 BB

      River: (93.5 BB, 2 players) 4:club:
      MP bets 57.7 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 57.7 BB

      MP shows 8:club: A:club: (Flush, Ace High) (Pre 32%, Flop 48%, Turn 25%)
      Hero shows J:spade: J:diamond: (Two Pair, Jacks and Sixes) (Pre 68%, Flop 52%, Turn 75%)
      MP wins 203.9 BB



      is it ok? I think he either shoves flop on folds so I check, and try to induce bluffs turn.
  • 7 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Heyo,

      Can you go into more details what made you consider calling the 4bet? What is your general approach against 4bets anyway?
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,722
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Heyo,

      Can you go into more details what made you consider calling the 4bet? What is your general approach against 4bets anyway?

      I was before playing min 5bet/call with TT+, AQ, and 5bet/fold with KQ, KJ, AJ, but then I noticed that people are full of bluff 4bet, and they fold after I min 5bet. Thats off course good when they fold, but then they dont make too big mistakes (since I also have to fold to their 4bet).
      Thats why I started calling vs min 4bet (vs aggro 4better), since I want to have wider range (89s-JTs, KJ+, AJ+, TT+), and there are pople that play totally spewy (play for stacks as bluff) where I win in the long run with my value hands, and there are people that cbet flop and give up, or give up flop.

      So my gamplan postflop is float once with overcards and give up turn, or call down overpair. IF the board is Axx I give up most hands (since people 4bet as bluff with Ax). Also I write note about each 4better, to know how he plays postflop so that i can adjust.

      Do you think that this could be good? Or maybe to devide my range, to have calling and 4bet range, e.g. call AA, KK, TT, AQ, and 4bet KQ, AJ, KJ, JJ, QQ, AK?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      First of all, you are not facing min4bets. It's always a standard sized 4bet from what I've seen here and in some other hands. Min4bet = minimum raise, in this specific case, a min4bet is to 15bb.

      Regarding calling 4bets, there are pros and cons. Pros usually involve people spewing stacks postflop and cons are that your opponents realise their equity more often. For example, hands like TT have good benefit from opponents folding KQ bluff 4bets.

      Min5betting is not great in a spot like this where people don't have a huge amount of bluff 4bets. Most 4bet bluff ranges consist of Axs or KQ, KJ type hands. That's not very wide if you think they don't use it everytime. If they use it everytime, they fold even more often to the 5bet. When they 4bet to 19-20bb, you should already consider shoving more often. Your goal is to induce 4bets (which you do) and then capitalise on all the dead money. If you min5bet you hope to induce, which almost never happens if you are not BU vs Blinds.

      If you want a strategy will calling 4bets, all I can say is be ready to play some super tricky spots. If your opponents see you flat 4bets with less than KK+ slowplays, they can pretty much say they 4bet AQ for value and play accordingly.
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,722
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      First of all, you are not facing min4bets. It's always a standard sized 4bet from what I've seen here and in some other hands. Min4bet = minimum raise, in this specific case, a min4bet is to 15bb.

      Regarding calling 4bets, there are pros and cons. Pros usually involve people spewing stacks postflop and cons are that your opponents realise their equity more often. For example, hands like TT have good benefit from opponents folding KQ bluff 4bets.

      Min5betting is not great in a spot like this where people don't have a huge amount of bluff 4bets. Most 4bet bluff ranges consist of Axs or KQ, KJ type hands. That's not very wide if you think they don't use it everytime. If they use it everytime, they fold even more often to the 5bet. When they 4bet to 19-20bb, you should already consider shoving more often. Your goal is to induce 4bets (which you do) and then capitalise on all the dead money. If you min5bet you hope to induce, which almost never happens if you are not BU vs Blinds.

      If you want a strategy will calling 4bets, all I can say is be ready to play some super tricky spots. If your opponents see you flat 4bets with less than KK+ slowplays, they can pretty much say they 4bet AQ for value and play accordingly.
      Ok, I meant when he 4bets smaller than 2.5x (2x or smaller). Do you think that 2x raise is standard one?

      Ok, I got your point about calling 4bet. Thanks for detailed explanation.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      It's not just relative to your 3bet but also relative to the stacks so 20bb for 100bb stacks is pretty standard.

      I want to add one more thing about calling 4bets: it's possible to do and usually what I recommend when people try it out is to not 5bet at all and flat QQ+ too. The reason for calling these as well is so that you have a stronger range when not very certain about what your opponent's range is. Once you are very well able to define his range and tendencies you can revert if you deem it higher EV.
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,722
      Interestingly, coatch Mbml, also asked me why do I call 4bet, and then he wrote me his opinion about this.
      your two opinions differ a lot, seems to me. His last comment in thread AK vs 4b small

      I think you are both right.

      1) You said, that calling 4b is bad because if opponents realize that I call 4bet with only KK+ strong hands, and rest weaker, then they can value 4bet AQ. Thats true, but, are they really going to realize that in zoom about my whole range? And what if I mix it up from time to time?

      2) You said that, if I call 4bet smaller size, the advantage is that people play spewy. I agree, and I think I can also play spewy. The difference is that, if call 4bet is my strategy, then I can build a gameplan and I practice this situation very frequently, and my opponents maybe don't have gameplan for that (and don't think about my range), and also they practice it less than me, so I can conclude that they will make more mistakes than me ? What do you think about this argument?

      3) If I 3bet 9bb, and villian 4bet 19bb as this guy, then he needs 49% FE to have direct profit, which means that from my e.g. 10% range I need to defend at least half (5%) not to let him exploit me with his bluffs. and if I go direct push, then I need around 55% FE, so it means that I need to have some bluff range.
      My point is, I am not sure if the whole situation is profitable (my whole fold + push range) vs his 4bet range. I know that shoving AK is +Ev, but what about whole range?
      Thats why, I think I could punish villian more for 4betting small size if I call 4bet especially IP, and having stronger range than him
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      mbml's logic is fine, like you also said. What is different is that he knows his opponent's ranges and tendencies. My advice for flatting premiums as well comes from the idea that you want to start flatting 4bets but don't know yet how your opponents really so you strengthen your range so you can get to showdown way more often. EV wise it cannot be a lot less profitable because people will not put you on the correct range to start with. Once you know their tendencies, like previously said, you can change again.

      Like mbml also said, it's very very complex, it depends on the pot odds you get pre, depends on history you had as well. Your observations are correct, for each option you can find a case where you should take it to be MaxEV. You seem to work quite a bit on your game so if you continue like this and keep an eye on your tougher spots, you'll get the hang of them evenatually. :)