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[NL20-NL50] KK 4bet deep

    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Silver
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,735
      PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BTN: 211.66 BB (VPIP: 23.53, PFR: 19.39, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 471)
      SB: 100.22 BB (VPIP: 17.46, PFR: 13.49, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 131)
      BB: 136.7 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 23.81, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 23)
      UTG: 110.74 BB (VPIP: 21.83, PFR: 17.79, 3Bet Preflop: 3.80, Hands: 926)
      MP: 107.36 BB (VPIP: 41.18, PFR: 23.53, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 17)
      Hero (CO): 306.78 BB

      SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

      Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:diamond: K:spade:

      fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BTN raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 21 BB, BTN calls 12 BB

      Flop: (43.5 BB, 2 players) 8:club: 7:heart: 6:club:
      Hero bets 23 BB, BTN calls 23 BB

      Turn: (89.5 BB, 2 players) 6:diamond:
      Hero checks, BTN bets 42.5 BB, Hero calls 42.5 BB

      River: (174.5 BB, 2 players) 4:heart:
      Hero checks, BTN bets 103 BB, Hero calls 103 BB

      BTN shows J:diamond: K:heart: (One Pair, Sixes) (Pre 9%, Flop 4%, Turn 0%)
      Hero shows K:diamond: K:spade: (Two Pair, Kings and Sixes) (Pre 91%, Flop 96%, Turn 100%)
      Hero wins 375.5 BB


      is my line ok? Should I be afraid of 66-88? I dont think that he 3bets that, but I think he could 3bet 67s, 78s, 89s, 9Ts. He could probably also call those hands.

      I dont expect him to bet any better hand when I check turn, so I see my KK as bluff catcher. Also I am not sure if I can stack off QQ deep, thats why I check turn becuase I think he can call wide on flop, and then turn some hands into bluff.
  • 4 replies
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,795
      Hi.

      I don't think you should be checking the Turn, because JJ/TT/QQ as well as some top pair hands like 99/87s/98s will call again. Just bet the Turn and shove blank Rivers yourself.

      Unless you have a read that he's floating wide, which I don't think you have. As played this is a very easy call T call R spot because the majority of his PF range should be broadways and big/mid pocket pairs. I don't think he should have too many suited connectors or Aces, especially the lower ones.

      IMO if you want to be taking pot control lines here on blankish turns, maybe you shouldn't be 4-betting preflop in the first place. The reason for 4-betting is for value and because you want to build the pot to prepare to play for stacks.
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Silver
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,735
      Originally posted by mbml
      Hi.

      I don't think you should be checking the Turn, because JJ/TT/QQ as well as some top pair hands like 99/87s/98s will call again. Just bet the Turn and shove blank Rivers yourself.

      Unless you have a read that he's floating wide, which I don't think you have. As played this is a very easy call T call R spot because the majority of his PF range should be broadways and big/mid pocket pairs. I don't think he should have too many suited connectors or Aces, especially the lower ones.

      IMO if you want to be taking pot control lines here on blankish turns, maybe you shouldn't be 4-betting preflop in the first place. The reason for 4-betting is for value and because you want to build the pot to prepare to play for stacks.

      I did 4bet for value, and I check turn "for value". He is floating in 3bet pots, so probably also in 4bet pots, so I expected him to bet turn with his broadways, and he is probably betting TT-QQ (maybe smaller bet to protect).
      My point in checking turn is that I don't expect him to call Turn with hands which he floats on flop, and also he is a regg, so I don'T expect him to call Turn and River shove with TT-QQ (maybe QQ, but unlikely).

      Also my image is, that I when 4bet, cbet flop and give up, I play the same way in 3bet pots, thats why I almost always check the turn with value hands (so my turn cbet is very low, and probably induces floats), and decide accordin to villian and board weather to push on call down.
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,795
      I dont expect him to bet any better hand when I check turn, so I see my KK as bluff catcher.
      You are turning your KK into a bluff catcher. That has nothing to do with checking for value.

      The way to solve your current problems is just to barrel bluff more aggressively, instead of checking more strong hands.

      Theoretically speaking, aggression is good especially on multiple streets, because you can just bet way more air combos than if you were to play it passively. It'll just increase your overall expectation.
    • mlatasrb
      mlatasrb
      Silver
      Joined: 01.04.2012 Posts: 2,735
      Originally posted by mbml
      I dont expect him to bet any better hand when I check turn, so I see my KK as bluff catcher.
      You are turning your KK into a bluff catcher. That has nothing to do with checking for value.

      The way to solve your current problems is just to barrel bluff more aggressively, instead of checking more strong hands.

      Theoretically speaking, aggression is good especially on multiple streets, because you can just bet way more air combos than if you were to play it passively. It'll just increase your overall expectation.
      Ok, I got your explanation, you convinced me, KK shouldnt be bluff catcher, I could use some weaker hands for that, since I anyway beat him on river with KK the same way as with 89 for example.

      I just rear the article about "Nash Equilibrium and Bluffing/Calling Frequencies".
      Want to ask you, to make sure I understood it and if I can apply it.

      1) In this example, where I have KK, I should already on flop make a plan how will I play each street with which range, so that he cant exploit me. If I bet 2/3 pot each street, he needs me to bluff there > 33% of time to be able to call profitable for example wtih JJ, QQ.
      If I bluff there > 33%, he can exploiting by calling any value hand (each time when he calls he makes money, so the more he calls the more he winns), and if I bluff <33% then he can fold all marginal hands, and call only strong hands.
      So in order not to let him exploit me, I need to have exactly 66% value range, and 33% bluff range?
      Thats why I should decide what I am betting for value, on this board KK+ (I dont have sets and straights in range), so that is now 12 value combos, because of that I need 6 bluff combos.
      The best is to choose to bluff with 6 combos of AK, because we have in that case the best blockers to AA, KK (which he can call with) ?

      I guess it is not so important to think about my value and bluff range, when I have value like AA, KK, because it is easy decision (Bet bet bet), but when I want to bluff, then I should look how many value combos I have and half of that should be bluff combos, and choose bluff combos which are the best? Would that be ok approach? Or you have some advice, how to do that fast, when I have around 30 sec to act?


      2) What if I know that villian folds e.g. 80% on the river when I bet 2/3 pot size? If I would bluff all hands in my range there I would maximaly exploit him (until he adapts). Or if he calls too wide, then I would best exploit him by betting only value hands. So when I compare, exploit strategy vs betting 66% value and 33% bluff (being unexploited), then I think it is better to exploit him (larger EV)?
      So I can conclude, when I am sure about villian weakness (having a lot of stats which supports that), then I should exploit him, rather than being balanced (until he adapts). And If I don't have strong reads on his range and calling frequencies, then I should have 66% value bets and 33% bluffs in order to be unexploited (if I cant exploit him, at least I dont let him exploit me).


      3) I think when I bet it is easy to determine the range of opponent, simply by looking at his river call stat, so if it is large, I exploit him by value betting only, if it is too low, I exploit him by bluffing a lot.
      But, when I am the one who calls the bet from villian, how do I know how often is he having value hand on specific board and positions? Maybe again, if his river bet stat is too high, I can call more often, and if it is too low, I can call only strong hands? IF I cant conclude from stat, or have no stats and reads, I call according to NASH?